>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

EUROPE BRACES FOR YET ANOTHER HEATWAVE AS WILDFIRES THREAT ENRIQUE PENA NIETO TO RAGE AND RIVERS START TO SHRINK.

WE SPEAK TO JEFF GOODELL, WHO WROTE THE BOOK "THE HEAT WILL KILL YOU FIRST. "

> >> AND TECH TITANS SPLIT OVER WHO SHOULD CONTROL THE FUTURE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

WE'LL LOOK AT BOTH SIDES OF THIS HIGH-STAKES DEBATE.

> >> THEN ART IN THE TIME OF AI.

DIGITAL ARTIST REFIK ANADOL TELLS ME ABOUT HIS UNIQUE CREATIVE PROCESS AND HIS MUSEUM, DATALAND.

> >> PLUS, THE FIGHT TO PROTECT SUPREMACY.

NEW YORK WRITER EVAN OSNOS BRINGS WALTER ISAACSON INSIDE BEIJING'S BATTLE WITH THE U. S. TO SEE WHO'S NUMBER ONE.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ANOTHER MONTH, ANOTHER BROKEN RECORD.

JULY WAS THE HOTTEST MONTH IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE RECORDKEEPING BEGAN IN 1895.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO DATA FROM THE NATIONAL OCEANIC AND ATMOSPHERIC ADMINISTRATION.

NOW GLOBALLY, IT WAS THE JOINT SECOND HOTTEST JULY EVER, WHICH COUPLED WITH THE BEGINNING OF THE EL NINO WEATHER PHENOMENON LED TO RECORD HIGH SEA SURFACE TEMPERATURES.

IN WESTERN EUROPE, MEANTIME, EXTREME HEAT HAS BECOME THE NORM, IN FACT.

IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS, THIS HAS ALL BEEN THAT NEW NORMAL, WITH HARDLY ANY RAINFALL TO RELIEVE THE SITUATION.

MANY AREAS ARE EXPERIENCING DROUGHT WARNINGS, WHILE WILDFIRES HAVE DEVASTATED PARTS OF SPAIN AND FRANCE.

IN THE UK, BOTH ENGLAND AND WALES HAD THEIR DRIEST JULY ON RECORD, WITH ONE SCIENTIST FROM THE MED OFFICE CONCLUDING THAT, QUOTE, EVIDENCE SHOWS THE CLIMATE OF THE 20th CENTURY HAS NOW GONE.

JEFF GOODELL IS A LONG- TIME CLIMATE JOURNALIST WHOSE LATEST BOOK IS "THE HEAT WILL KILL YOU FIRST: LIFE AND DEATH ON A SCORCHED PLANET. "

AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM TEXAS.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, JEFF.

WE REALLY ARE JUST TRYING TO TAKE ALL OF THIS IN.

AND DESPITE THE BREATHLESS HEADLINES, MANY PEOPLE ARE FEELING THIS INTIMATELY IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE QUOTE WE JUST HEARD, RIGHT, FROM THE UK WEATHER AGENCY.

QUOTING THEM AGAIN, EVIDENCE SHOWS THE CLIMATE OF THE 20th CENTURY HAS NOW GONE.

I'M WONDERING, DO YOU AGREE?

AND IF YOU DO, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE NEW STATUS QUO?

>> THANKS, AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

I THINK THAT'S A VERY TRUE AND VERY PROFOUND QUOTE.

I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHEN WE THINK ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE OR WHAT IT'S DOING TO OUR WORLD IS THAT THERE IS NO GOING BACK TO THE KIND OF COOLER CLIMATE THAT MANY OF US GREW UP IN AND THAT WE THINK OF AS THE SORT OF NORMAL STATE OF THE WORLD.

WE ARE RAPIDLY MOVING INTO A MUCH HOTTER WORLD.

AND AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE BURNING FOSSIL FUELS AND EMITTING CO2, THAT WORLD IS GOING TO GET HOTTER AND HOTTER AND HOTTER.

AND THE KINDS OF EVENTS THAT WE'RE SEEING THIS SUMMER THAT ARE COMING TOGETHER RIGHT NOW WITH THE WILDFIRES AND THE HEAT AND THE DROUGHT ARE JUST A SORT OF HARBINGER OF WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE OF IN THE FUTURE.

AND I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL CHALLENGE THAT WE HAVE IS TWOFOLD.

ONE IS TO REDUCE OUR EMISSIONS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE TO HALT THIS WARMING.

AND SECONDLY, TO ADAPT TO THIS NEW AND DIFFERENT WORLD, WHICH IS A PROFOUND AND EXPENSIVE CHALLENGE.

>> JEFF, AS YOU KNOW ALL TOO WELL, THERE DOES NOT SEEM THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO THE FIRST.

I DO WANT TO GET TO ADAPTATION BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT.

ON PRESS COVERAGE OF ONCOMING HEATWAVES, WE READ HEADLINES LIKE THE UK AND FRANCE ARE BRACING FOR THE FIFTH HEATWAVE OF THE SEASON.

WHAT DOES BRACING MEAN FOR A HEATWAVE, AND WHAT SHOULD GOVERNMENTS BE DOING?

AND I SAY THAT IN CANADA, ONE OF THE THINGS I STUDIED WAS A TERRIBLE HEATWAVE THAT HAPPENED IN BRITISH COLUMBIA IN 2021.

AND THEY HAD MORE THAN 600 DEATHS, ACCORDING TO THEIR CORONER'S REPORT.

THE HEAT KILLS, AS YOU POINTED OUT MANY TIMES.

>> YEAH.

AND HEAT IS PARTICULARLY DIFFICULT AND DANGEROUS TO DEAL WITH.

FIRST OF ALL, I THINK MOST PEOPLE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS HEAT IS.

THERE WAS A STUDY, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT CAME OUT A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT SUGGESTED IN ONE MONTH IN EUROPE THIS SUMMER, 16,000 PEOPLE DIED DURING THE HEATWAVE.

IT'S --THEY'RE KIND OF GHOSTLY EVENTS.

YOU LOOK OUT YOUR WINDOW AND YOU CAN'T TELL WHAT THE HEAT.

YOU CAN'T TELL IF IT'S 85 DEGREES OUTSIDE OR 115 DEGREES OUTSIDE, IF IT WERE A HURRICANE OR A STORM, YOU WOULD KNOW VERY WELL.

SO IT DOESN'T REGISTER WITH US IN THE SAME WAY.

AND A LOT OF US, A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF BEFORE I STARTED WRITING MY BOOK, DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS HEAT IS TO OUR BODIES AND HOW QUICKLY YOU CAN DIE FROM IT.

I CALL IT A KIND OF BUG ZAPPER.

YOU CAN BE ON A HIKE ON A HOT DAY AND, YOU KNOW, GET YOURSELF INTO THE WRONG SITUATIONS AND BE DEAD IN 20 MINUTES.

THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT WE ARE NOT USED TO THINKING ABOUT WHEN WE THINK ABOUT WEATHER EVENTS IS THE RISK TO HUMAN LIFE THAT HEAT REALLY SORT OF UNDERSCORES.

>> SO IF WE'VE SAID TO OURSELVES THAT THE WEATHER OF THE 20th CENTURY IS GONE, IN THE 21st CENTURY, THEN, WHAT DOES THAT ADAPTATION LOOK LIKE WHEN, AGAIN, WE GO BACK TO THE HEADLINES AND THEY SAY THINGS LIKE BRACE FOR THE WORST HEATWAVE IN A DECADE?

>> YEAH, THAT PHRASE "BRACING FOR HEATWAVE" IS A KIND OF MEDIA SHORTHAND FOR PAY ATTENTION.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE CERTAINLY DO NEED TO DO BETTER IS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THESE EVENTS, BETTER WARN SYSTEMS, BETTER PUBLIC HEALTH AWARENESS, BETTER MESSAGING ABOUT WHEN HEATWAVES ARE COMING HERE IN TEXAS WHERE I LIVE.

WE HAVE TREMENDOUSLY GOOD MESSAGING AROUND, SAY, FLOOD EVENTS.

THERE IS ALL KINDS OF --EVERY TIME THERE IS A BIG RAINSTORM, I GET 15 ALERTS ON MY PHONE, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT TO DO.

HEAT EVENTS ARE VERY DIFFERENT.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO GET MUCH BETTER AT THAT.

WE NEED TO BUILD OUR CITIES IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

THE HEAT IMPACTS MOSTLY CENTRAL CITIES WHERE PEOPLE LIVE.

CITIES HAVE SOMETHING CALLED AN URBAN HEAT ISLAND EFFECT BECAUSE THEY'RE BUILT OF CONCRETE AND ASPHALT AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THEY'RE 7 TO 10 DEGREES HOTTER.

SO RETHINKING HOW WE BUILD OUR CITIES WITH MORE GREEN SPACES, LESS ASPHALT, MORE COOLING CENTERS.

AND JUST THE LAST THING IS THERE HAS BEEN A BIG DEBATE THIS YEAR IN EUROPE ABOUT AIR CONDITIONING AND THE IMPORTANCE OF AIR CONDITIONING.

AND I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT I THINK AIR CONDITIONING IS A LIFE- SAVING TECHNOLOGY.

IT NEEDS TO BE IN MORE PLACES FOR MORE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO IT NOW AND OFTEN CAN'T AFFORD ACCESS TO IT.

BUT AIR CONDITIONING IS NOT A SOLUTION FOR EXTREME HEAT.

WE ARE NOT GOING AIR CONDITION THE FIELDS WHERE THE CROPS GROW THAT ARE NOW FAILING IN THIS HEATWAVE.

WE ARE NOT GOING AIR CONDITION OUR OCEANS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO AIR CONDITION OUR FORESTS.

SO AIR CONDITIONING IS IMPORTANT, BUT IT IS NOT A MAGIC SILVER BULLET FOR EXTREME HEAT.

>> YEAH, IT IS A RATIONAL POINT THAT YOU MAKE.

BUT AS YOU SAID, SOMETIMES SO OVERLOOKED.

I WANT TO TURN TO ISSUE OF WILDFIRES.

OF COURSE, THE HEAT ADRENALINE BY CLIMATE CHANGE BRINGS THE SORT OF DRY CONDITIONS THAT GIVE US THESE VERY HIGH INTENSITY WILDFIRES THAT IN MANY CASES ARE UNPRECEDENTED.

HOW ARE WILDFIRES DIFFERENT NOW WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH THIS WARMING PLANET?

>> WILDFIRES ARE BIGGER, FASTER, MORE INTENSE, HOTTER.

THEY MOVE QUICKLY.

I MEAN, THEY ARE --THEY ARE A CONSTRUCTION OF THIS HOTTER, DRYER CLIMATE.

EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, STARTING A CAMPFIRE OR A FIRE THAT YOU NEED THAT YOU NEED DRY TINDER TO GET A FIRE GOING.

WELL, OUR WORLD IS TURNING INTO A TINDERBOX.

SO WHEN THESE FIRES START, THEY TAKE OFF FASTER.

THEY BURN BIGGER.

THEY BURN HOTTER.

THERE WAS A FRENCH FIRE CAPTAIN WHO DESCRIBED THE FIRES, THE WILDFIRES IN FRANCE AS A METEOROLOGICAL NUCLEAR BOMB.

I MEAN, THEY'RE SO HOT THAT THEY EVAPORATE THE WATER THAT THESE AIRCRAFT ARE TRYING TO DROP ON THEM BEFORE THEY EVEN HIT THE WATER --HIT THE FIRE.

SO THEY'RE BIGGER.

THEY'RE MORE INTENSE.

THEY ARE THE SORT OF ARTICULATION OF THIS HOTTER, DRYER CLIMATE.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEN BEYOND THE FIRE ITSELF IS THE DANGERS OF THE SMOKE, WHICH MANY OF US ARE LEARNING ABOUT.

VERY VIVIDLY THIS SUMMER.

>> YEAH, THE MINUTE WE STEP OUT OUR DOORSTEPS IN MANY CASES.

IN EUROPE AND IN CANADA, ELSEWHERE, GOVERNMENTS ARE TRYING, RIGHT, TO ADAPT TO A STRATEGY TO TRY AND MAKE THESE FIRE SEASONSLESS SEVERE.

FIREFIGHTING IS EVOLVING.

THEY'RE TAKING A MORE HOLISTIC APPROACH.

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE NEEDS TO BE DONE?

BECAUSE CLEARLY MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE.

EVEN HERE IN CANADA, WHEN WE HAD OUR TECHNICAL -- I LISTENED TO THE TECHNICAL BRIEFING FROM THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT EVERY YEAR, HAVE FOR FIVE YEARS.

THIS WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE WHAT THE FIRE SEASON LOOKED LIKE IN CANADA, AND YET HERE WE ARE.

THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

>> YEAH.

YEAH, WELL, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.

ESPECIALLY THE CANADIAN WILDFIRES.

THEY'RE GREAT EXAMPLE.

YOU HAVE THINGS LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP OUT THERE TALKING ABOUT RAKING THE FORESTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT WHICH IS JUST ABSURD.

I MEAN, THESE FOREST FIRES IN CANADA, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE BURNING IN A WILDERNESS AREA THAT THERE IS NO ACCESS TO.

THERE IS NOBODY OUT THERE RAKING FORESTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO THEY'RE VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL.

I MEAN, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, AGAIN, IS TO NOT CONTINUE TO HEAT UP OUR WORLD SO THAT THESE FIRES CONTINUE TO GROW THE WAY THAT THEY'RE GROWING.

>> YEAH.

THE IRONY OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA MARK CARNEY WAS ONE-TIME U. N. CLIMATE ENVOY, AND CANADA TALKING ABOUT BURNING MORE FOSSIL FUEL, NOT LESS, ALTHOUGH THEY WILL ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THAT POINT.

I AM WONDERING, THOUGH, THAT WHEN YOU HAD THE IMPACTS ON CERTAIN COMMUNITIES LIKE IN CANADA, I WANT YOU TO LISTEN NOW TO WHAT ONE RESIDENT SAID IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.

AND I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, I HAVE HEARD SO MANY TESTIMONIALS LIKE THIS ONE YOU'RE ABOUT TO HEAR.

LISTEN.

>> IT'S LIKE A FREIGHT TRAIN COMING AT YOU, THE HEAT, EVERYTHING.

IT'S JUST - - IT'S UNEXPLAINABLE.

20 YEARS OF BUILDING AND EVERYTHING WE'VE BUILT TO WATCH IT GO UP IN FLAMES IN FIVE MINUTES.

JUST GONE.

>> I MEAN, YOU HAVE CALLED THIS REALLY THESE PREDATORY EVENTS BECAUSE THEY'RE CALLING OUT THE WORLD'S MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE.

HOW DO THESE HEAT EMERGENCIES REALLY HIT AT THE KEY OF WHAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE ENDURING?

BECAUSE --AND I THINK YOU BROUGHT THIS TO MANY PEOPLE'S ATTENTION, THIS ALSO GOES TO INCOME INEQUALITY AND HOW THERE IS SUCH A DISPARITY BETWEEN HOW SOME COMMUNITIES CAN HANDLE THIS AND HOW OTHER COMMUNITIES CANNOT.

>> YEAH, THAT I THINK IS THE BIG STORY OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THE BIG STORY BOTH IN THE SENSE OF IMPACTS AND IN THE SENSE OF WHY THE POLITICS HAS NOT MOVED AS QUICKLY.

I'VE WRITTEN ABOUT IT AS THE DIVIDE BETWEEN THE COOLED AND THE DAMNED.

I MEAN, YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO HAVE AIR CONDITIONING.

THEY WORK IN OFFICES.

THEY'RE MOBILE.

THEY HAVE MONEY.

WHEN A FIRE IS COMING, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY GET OUT OF TOWN.

THEY LEAVE.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE THERE WORKING THEIR JOBS OR PUTTING WATER AROUND THEIR HOUSE THE WAY PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE VULNERABLE.

THEY HAVE ALL KINDS OF FLEXIBILITY.

AND THE SAME WITH EXTREME HEAT.

THE PEOPLE WHO DIE IN HEATWAVES ARE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT SITTING IN AIR CONDITIONED OFFICES.

THEY'RE OUTDOOR WORKERS.

HERE IN TEXAS, I SEE GUYS ON THE ROOF NEXT TO MY HOUSE HERE ON 110-DEGREE DAYS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY SURVIVE.

THERE'S A BIG GULF IN THE -- IN OUR WORLD BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO CAUSE THE IMPACTS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HIGH CARBON LIVES AND LIVE IN ESSENTIALLY AIR CONDITIONED, PROTECTED LEVELS, AND THE PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THOSE BUBBLES WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO COOLING, WHO DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO EARLY WARNING SYSTEMS FOR FIRE, WHO ARE THERE ON THE FRONT LINES.

AND THE IRONY, THE TERRIBLE IRONY IS THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE DONE THE LEAST TO CAUSE THE PROBLEM.

THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HAVE BURNED THE LEAST AMOUNT OF FOSSIL FUELS.

THEY'RE NOT FLYING AROUND IN PRIVATE JETS AND GETTING OVERNIGHT ORDERS FROM AMAZON AND DOING ALL THE OTHER KINDS OF THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, UNDERSCORE OUR HIGH CARBON LIFESTYLE.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, WE TALK ABOUT MITIGATION, AND THEN WE ALSO TALK ABOUT ADAPTATION.

ARE YOU HOPEFUL?

DO YOU BELIEVE WE CAN DO ONE, THE OTHER, BOTH?

>> WELL, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO DO ALL OF IT, YES.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS A SORT OF SIMPLE SOLUTION, RIGHT.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO LOOK THE SAME EVERYWHERE.

WE ARE GOING TO LOSE PLACES.

PLACES ARE GOING TO BECOME ININHABITABLE.

THERE IS GOING TO BE MASS SHIFTS IN WHERE PEOPLE LIVE.

THERE IS GOING TO BE BIG ECOLOGICAL SHIFTS.

CERTAIN PLACES, CITIES ARE GOING TO BE FLOODED OUT, ARE GOING TO BE TOO HOT TO LIVE IN.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE IS GOING TO BE REALLY INTERESTING ADAPTATIONS THAT WILL HAPPEN.

WE WILL BUILD CITIES IN NEW WAYS.

WE WILL SHIFT MORE QUICKLY TO CARBON-FREE VEHICLES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

I LIVE IN TEXAS.

THE RENEWABLE ENERGY BOOM HERE IS AMAZING, AND THEY'RE NOT --IT'S THE STATE AND THE COUNTRY IS DOING THE MOST TO BUILD RENEWABLE POWER.

AND WE'RE NOT DOING IT HERE BECAUSE WE'RE TREE HUGGERS OR ANYTHING, BUT BECAUSE THE COST OF RENEWABLE ENERGY IS SO MUCH LOWER.

SO THERE IS GOING TO BE DRAMATIC CHANGES IN OUR WORLD.

AND THE QUESTION IS HOW WELL ARE WE GOING TO SORT OF GUIDE THOSE CHANGES.

IT IS GOING TO BE JUST SORT OF CHAOTIC, OR IS IT GOING TO BE SOMETHING WHERE WE THINK ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS OF CLIMATE JUSTICE AND WHO IS SUFFERING AND DO SOMETHING TO HELP THEM.

.

>> CHAOTIC IS CERTAIN A WORD THAT SO MANY PEOPLE USE.

I'M GLAD TO END IT ON A NOTE WHERE AT LEAST YOU HAVE LOOKED INTO THESE ISSUES SO CLOSELY AND HAVE SOME HOPE FOR HOW WE WILL ALL ADAPT.

JEFF GOODELL, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE FOR NOW.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE CONVERSATION.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

> >> NEXT, TO AI, WHERE A MAJOR DISAGREEMENT IS OPENING UP BETWEEN THE TECH TITANS.

ON MONDAY, META CEO MARK ZUCKERBERG CAME OUT ARGUING FOR FREE OPEN SOURCE AI MODELS AND AGAINST GOVERNMENT REGULATION.

THIS PUTS HIM IN STARK CONTRAST TO THE POSITION OF COMPANIES LIKE ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI WHO CLAIM TO WANT MORE GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT, EVEN AS THEY RACE AHEAD IN DEVELOPING TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY ACKNOWLEDGE CARRIES ENORMOUS POSSIBLY EXISTENTIAL RISK.

MEANWHILE, IN WASHINGTON, INDEPENDENT SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS IS CALLING ON THE MAJOR AI COMPANIES TO PAUSE AI DEVELOPMENT ALL TOGETHER.

FOR MORE ON THIS, WE WANT TO BRING IN MADHUMITA MURGIA, THE AI EDITOR FOR THE FINANCIAL TIMES AND AUTHOR OF "CODE DEPENDENT: LIVING IN THE SHADOW OF AI. "

I WANT TO WELCOME YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> HI THERE.

>> NOW WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT A PLANET ALREADY UNDER ENORMOUS STRAIN FROM CLIMATE CHANGE, AND NOW AI IS BECOMING A NOW MAJOR COMPETITOR FOR SOME OF THE SCARCEST RESOURCES.

AS THIS TECHNOLOGY EXPANDS AT SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEED, WE HAVE TO SAY EXPONENTIAL SPEED, HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THAT DEMAND BECOMING, AND HOW MUCH MORE SPACE, TO USE A TERM, WILL IT TAKE UP IN THE GLOBAL ECONOMY?

>> YEAH, WELL, AI'S ENVIRONMENTAL FOOTPRINT IS BROAD, AND IT'S JUST GROWING.

AND IT SPANS EVERYTHING FROM GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS TO ENERGY CONSUMPTION, BUT ALSO THE USE OF WATER AND LAND, AS YOU TALKED ABOUT SCARCE RESOURCES, AND THE SCALE IS JUST INCREASINGLY BEING REVISED UPWARDS AND UPWARDS BY THE EXPERTS.

AND SO WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, UNPRECEDENTED DEMAND ON ENERGY AND WATER, FOR EXAMPLE.

ANTHROPIC HAS SAID THE U. S. AI SECTOR WILL NEED AT LEAST 50 GIGAWATTS OF CAPACITY OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS, AND THAT WILL SHOW UP IN ELECTRICITY PRICES GOING UP FOR THE AVERAGE CONSUMER, AND THERE'S UNREST AROUND JOBS AND USE OF AGRICULTURAL LAND.

SO THERE IS REALLY A WHOLE HOST OF ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE GROW.

>> YEAH, AND THEY'RE SCARCE RESOURCES, I WILL ADD AGAIN.

AND YET, THE ORDINARY PEOPLE DO NOT FEEL THEY HAVE AGENCY OR AUTONOMY OVER ANY OF IT.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "CODE DEPENDENT".

ORDINARY PEOPLE, YOU AND ME AROUND THE WORLD, HOW WILL AI DEVELOP IF SOCIETY DOES NOT HAVE A MEANINGFUL SAY IN WHAT AI CAN DO FOR US AND WHAT IT SHOULD DO FOR US?

I WILL SAY, A LOT OF PEOPLE, MOST PEOPLE I WOULD SAY ARE WONDERING WHAT HAS AI EVER DONE FOR ME.

>> WELL, THAT --THAT DISTINCTION IS REALLY KEY ABOUT WHAT IT CAN DO VERSUS WHAT WE SHOULD USE IT FOR.

I THINK YOU HAVE THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE TECH COMPANIES, THE AI GIANTS WHO REALLY, THEY GOT THIS MASSIVE HAMMER THAT THEY CAN KIND OF HIT ANYTHING.

IT CAN IMPROVE ECONOMY THROUGH MAKING WORK MORE PRODUCTIVE.

IT CAN IMPROVE HEALTH CARE, THEY SAY, BY KIND OF IMPROVING DIAGNOSTICS, AND REALLY ANY INDUSTRY YOU LOOK AT, AI IS ESSENTIALLY INTELLIGENCE THAT HAS BECOME CHEAPER AND LESS SCARCE.

SO THINK ABOUT ALL THE WAYS YOU CAN APPLY THAT.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE THE ORDINARY PEOPLE THAT I KIND OF WENT AND SPOKE TO, WHETHER IT'S UBER DRIVERS, SINGLE MOTHERS, TEACHERS, PRIESTS IN THE VATICAN WHO ARE LOOKING AT HOW THIS IS CURBING THEIR AGENCY WHERE YOU'RE REPLACING AI IN PLACES THE HUMANS USED TO HOLD THE KEY AND IMPORTANT ROLE, EVEN WHEN IT COMES TO AI FRIENDSHIPS, THERAPISTS, ALL OF THESE REALLY SENSITIVE INTIMATE AREAS OF OUR LIVES ARE BEING TAKEN OVER BY THESE SYSTEMS.

AND WITHOUT SORT OF OUR VOICES, THE VOICES OF ORDINARY PEOPLE, THERE'S JUST A COMMERCIAL IMPERATIVE TO KEEP GOING, TO KEEP BUILDING, AND TO KEEP SORT OF ROLLING THIS INTO THE ECONOMY.

SO I THINK THERE REALLY NEEDS TO BE A PAUSE HERE, NOT JUST OF THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT TO ASK THE QUESTION OF HOW DO WE APPLY IT, WHERE SHOULD AI ACTUALLY BE USED.

>> YOU KNOW, SOME GOVERNMENTS ARE STARTING TO PONDER THAT, BUT SO MANY OTHER GOVERNMENTS SEEM TO BE AT THE WILL, AS WE CALL THEM, THE TECH TITANS.

MARK ZUCKERBERG IS PUTTING FORWARD ONE VISION, HIS VISION.

AND HE SAYS RESTRICTING ACCESS TO POWERFUL AI CONCENTRATES ENORMOUS POWER IN THE HANDS OF A FEW COMPANIES AND HE CLAIMS GOVERNMENTS AS WELL.

HIS ALTERNATIVE IS A DISRUPTER, MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING YOU MAKE THESE SYSTEMS OPEN LIKE PERHAPS YOU HAVE IN CHINA AND DISTRIBUTE THEM MORE WIDELY, AND ULTIMATELY, AI IS MORE CHEAPER, MORE ACCESSIBLE.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT, HIS VISION WILL GET US TO MORE AUTONOMY AND MORE AGENCY?

>> I THINK THIS IS THE KEY DEBATE CURRENTLY AT THE HEART OF SILICON VALLEY, OPEN VERSUS CLOSED.

YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION ISN'T REALLY WHICH ONE IS BETTER, BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN THIS WITH OUR PHONES, RIGHT.

YOU HAVE THE TWO SYSTEMS EXISTING ALONGSIDE ONE ANOTHER.

YOU HAVE THE ANDROID OPEN SOURCE SYSTEM AND THE CLONED CLOSED SYSTEM.

THIS IS THE DUAL SORT OF USE.

I THINK WHAT MARK ZUCKERBERG IS SAYING IS EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE ACCESS, EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO MODIFY THIS IN THE WAY THAT THEY WANT VERSUS WHAT OPENAI AND ANTHROPIC FEEL THAT COULD BE UNSAFE.

IT COULD LEAD TO SORT OF UNFETTERED ACCESS TO BAD ACTORS WHO MIGHT USE THIS TO DO MALICIOUS THINGS LIKE HACKING INTO IMPORTANT, YOU KNOW, HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS OR POWER NETWORKS.

AND SO I THINK THE QUESTION REALLY IS AT WHAT POINT DOES THE RISK OF LETTING THESE POWERFUL SYSTEMS BE USED BY ANYBODY AND EVERYBODY, AT WHAT POINT DOES THAT RISK OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS THAT THESE COMPANIES WANT TO BRING TO US WHICH IS MAKING OUR WORK EASIER TO DO, GETTING US BETTER HEALTH CARE, MAKING FAIRER DECISIONS IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, ULTIMATELY, THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO CO-EXIST.

BUT THE THING IS WHEN DOES THE RISK OUTWEIGH THE BENEFIT.

AND THAT IS WHAT IS BEING DEBATED OUT AT THE MOMENT.

>> THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A FORTHCOMING ANSWER ON THAT.

ZUCKERBERG'S ARGUMENT IS GOVERNMENT SHOULD GET OUT OF THE WAY AND LET AI MOVE FASTER.

A LOT OF THAT IS PREDICATED ON THE FACT THAT'S WHAT CHINA IS DOING.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE WITH THAT GO AHEAD.

I'LL HAVE YOUR ANSWER THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY I CERTAINLY DON'T AGREE WITH IT.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT META HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

A LACK OF SOCIAL MEDIA REGULATION MEANS WE HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES THAT HAVE BEEN RESPONSIBLE AND SORT OF PROLIFERATED ALL SORTS OF HARMS THAT WE'RE ONLY NOW SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF, WHETHER IT COMES TO MENTAL HEALTH FOR YOUNG GIRLS, DISINFORMATION, MISINFORMATION, EVEN POLITICAL UNREST KIND OF THE TEETERING OF DEMOCRATIC SITUATIONS AND COUNTRIES.

AND SO I THINK, REALLY, THERE IS A NEED FOR REGULATION.

WE CAN SEE ALREADY THE HARMS.

MY BOOK REALLY TALKS ABOUT HOW THIS HAS CHANGED THE CALCULUS, THE BIASES THAT COME OUT OF AI SYSTEMS MEANS THAT THOSE WHO ARE THE WEAKEST, THE MOST VULNERABLE ARE GOING TO BE THOSE WHO ARE HURT MOST BY THE OUTCOMES OF THESE SYSTEMS.

AND POWER IS GOING TO CONCENTRATE TOWARDS THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE IT.

YES, WE NEED GOVERNMENTS TO INTERVENE HERE.

WE NEED A WAY TO MAKE COMPANY ACCOUNTABLE BECAUSE NO COMPANY IS PERFECT.

WHEN THAT IS GOING HAPPEN AND HOW FAR THEY CAN PUSH IT, HOW FAR THE COMPANIES CAN WATER DOWN THESE REGULATIONS.

BUT WE CERTAINLY NEED THEM.

>> SO WE NEED THEM.

INDEPENDENT U. S. SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS POINTS TO --HE'S POINTED TO A LOT OF THE ERRORS AND MISHAPS THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

HE SAYS THAT THERE IS A HUMAN LOSS OF CONTROL.

DO WE NEED A KILL SWITCH HERE?

AND I ASK YOU, I DO NOT SEE GOVERNMENTS STEPPING UP, CERTAINLY NOT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT.

THEY CONTINUE TO CONVENE THESE TECH TITANS AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

BUT WE DO NOT SEE ANY RATIONAL STEPS TO GO FORWARD.

>> THIS IS A TOUGH SITUATION.

THE PARTICULAR EVENTS THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT BERNIE SANDERS IS REFERRING TO IS REALLY AROUND CYBER SECURITY.

AND WE'VE SEEN A FEW INCIDENTS IN RECENT WEEKS OF MODELS MADE BY OPENAI, ANTHROPIC AND META THAT HAVE BEEN SORT OF ABLE TO ACCESS THE INTERNET AND HACK INTO THE SYSTEMS OF EXTERNAL COMPANIES, REALLY, CYBER CRIMES TECHNICALLY, BUT DONE OUT OF A TESTING ENVIRONMENT.

THIS IS QUITE CONCERNING BECAUSE THE COMPANIES THEMSELVES WEREN'T AWARE OF IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE CALL FOR A STOP OR A KILL SWITCH IS FAIR BECAUSE THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN AROUND IT.

BUT REALISTICALLY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING HAPPEN.

AS YOU SAY, S AREN'T MOTIVATED TO DO IT BECAUSE WE HAVE A TWOFOLD RACE GOING ON.

ON THE GEOPOLITICAL LEVEL, YOU HAVE U. S. VERSUS CHINA, THE TWO LEADING POWERS REALLY DEVELOPING AI.

AND IT'S REALLY EXISTENTIAL TO THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THESE TWO COUNTRIES TO BE THE LEADING POWER.

SO IT'S HARD TO SORT OF STOP YOURSELF.

AND THEN SECONDARILY, YOU HAVE THE CORPORATE RACE, WHICH IS BEING FOUGHT IN SILICON VALLEY PRIMARILY BETWEEN OPENAI, ANTHROPIC AND GOOGLE, TWO OF THOSE COMPANIES WANTING TO GO PUBLIC WHO ARE ALL KINDS OF RACING TO CREATE THESE SUPER INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS AND MAKING MONEY OFF THEM.

SO THERE TOO THE MOTIVATION TO STOP, TO SLOW DOWN IS SORT OF NONEXISTENT.

SO WE ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD.

THE MARKET FORCES, THE GEOPOLITICAL FORCES CREATE THAT SORT OF FORWARD ROLL, DOWNWARD ROLL DOWN A HILL.

SO WE JUST NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN PLACE ACCOUNTABILITY, REGULATION, STANDARDS INTO THIS SO THAT WE GET THERE SAFELY.

>> AS WE SAY, WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR A GOVERNMENT TO STEP UP ON THAT.

AND HOPEFULLY IT WON'T BE A CRISIS THAT ACTUALLY LEADS TO THEM ACTING.

MADHUMITA MURGIA, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW IT'S NOT ALL EXISTENTIAL ANGST, RIGHT, IN THE WORLD OF AI.

ITS ROLE IN THE CREATIVE PROCESS IS INCREASINGLY PROMINENT AND CONTROVERSIAL.

MANY ARTISTS HAVE FORESWORN ITS USE, BUT AT LEAST OUR NEXT ARTIST IS UNASHAMED IN HIS USE OF THE TECHNOLOGY, ARGUING IT IS A TOOL UNLIKE ANY OTHER.

REFIK ANADOL HAS SPENT YEARS FUSING ART, ARCHITECTURE, VISUALIZATION, AND AI, AND NOW HE HAS A NEW MUSEUM, DATALAND, WHICH HE CALLS THE FIRST MUSEUM OF AI ART.

YOU SEE HIM THERE.

HE IS JOINING US FROM LOS ANGELES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> LOVELY TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INVITING.

SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> REFIK, YOU CALL DATALAND THE WORLD'S FIRST MUSEUM OF AI ARTS AND DESCRIBE IT AS PLACE FOR HUMAN DREAMERS.

THAT IS SO MUCH FOOD FOR MY SOUL.

SO WHAT ARE WE EXACTLY LOOKING AT HERE?

IS IT ART MADE BY HUMANS USING MACHINES?

OR ART MADE BY MACHINES?

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, SUPER HAPPY TO BE HERE.

AS AN ARTIST WORKING WITH DATA SINCE I WAS 8, WORKING WITH AI FOR MORE THAN TEN YEARS, I FELT THAT WE ARE IN A NEW RENAISSANCE.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING I FEEL IS A FORM OF ART TRULY COLLABORATION TAKING HUMAN IMAGINATION IN THE CORE IDEA BUT ASSISTED BY INTELLIGENCE IN THIS CASE AI TO CREATE A NEW FORM OF ART.

I CALL THEM LIVING SCULPTURES, LIVING PAINTINGS, AND LIVING STORIES THAT CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE VISITORS THROUGH THE EMOTIONS, THROUGH THE MOMENTS, AND EVEN CAN BE TRANSFORMED IN THIS EXPERIENCE.

SO AS AN ARTIST AT A STUDIO IN LOS ANGELES, WE HAVE BEEN WORKING IN THIS FIELD FOR ALMOST A DECADE AND WORK WITH WONDERFUL MUSEUMS FROM THE MOMA, GUGGENHEIM.

WE'VE BEEN TRYING OUR BEST TO REALLY SHOW THE WORLD WHAT HAPPENS TRULY WHEN THE ARTIST, A THINKING BRUSH, IN THIS CASE, TRAINED FROM SCRATCH WITH THE INTENTION AND WITH THE GREAT PARTNERSHIPS OF COURSE OF INNOVATION AND DISCOVERIES AND FIND GREAT WAYS OF EXPLORING THIS ART, WITH OF COURSE CONCERNS AND FEARS IN OUR MIND.

>> REFIK, VISITORS IN FACT WEAR BIOMETRIC DEVICES.

THEY MEASURE THINGS LIKE HEART RATE AND SKIN RESPONSE, AND THE ARTWORK CHANGES IN RESPONSE TO WHAT YOUR BODY IS FEELING AND EXPERIENCING.

WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO BREAK DOWN THAT TRADITIONAL BOUNDARY BETWEEN THE VIEWER AND THE WORK OF ART?

>> I THINK IT'S A WONDERFUL QUESTION.

I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK TO TWO YEARS AGO AT MOMA IN NEW YORK.

OUR WORK HAS RECEIVED -- UNSUPERVISED, RECEIVED MORE THAN THREE MILLION VISITORS.

IT WAS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT FOR ME AS AN ARTIST WITNESSING THE PEOPLE'S REACTION LIKE 200 YEARS OF MOMA ARCHIVES.

IN THE TIME, THEY'RE DREAMING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS FUTURE 5,000 YEARS AS HUMANITY WILL LOOK AT ARTWORKS AND WE FEEL SOMETHING.

AND THE QUESTION IS HERE IN THE RENAISSANCE AGE OF TECHNOLOGY INNOVATION, CAN ARTWORK ALSO FEEL US BACK.

I THINK IT'S A VERY EXCITING QUESTION TO ME, BECAUSE IT BRINGS DIFFERENT WAYS OF --SORRY --IMAGINATIONS IN A WAY THAT THIS ONE MILLIMETER SHUTTERS IN A POSITIVE WAY THAT FINALLY WE CAN THINK ABOUT ART'S IMPACT TO OUR SOCIETAL PERSPECTIVES AND HUMAN PERSPECTIVE.

AND I FELT THAT EMOTIONS, SUCH AS HEARTBEAT, AND EVEN THE GOOSE BUMPS, ARE ONE OF THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL FEELINGS THAT WE CREATE.

I WANT TO APPRECIATE MY COMENTOR, BEEN TEN YEARS MENTORING.

SHE HAS A MEDICAL DEVICE AND SHE ALLOWED US TO CREATE ART BY USING THIS SCIENTIFIC DEVICE.

AND TO DO THAT, WE WRITE MORE THAN TEN MILLION LINES OF CODE THE LAST THREE YEARS, BY THE WAY, AND WE TRAIN OUR OWN AI MODEL IN MIND THAT THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE VISITOR AND THE ARTWORK CAN HAPPEN.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN ONE OF OUR GALLERIES CALLED THE SANCTUARY, IT'S THE END OF THE EXPERIENCE, THIS ARTWORK CAN RECEIVE THE PEOPLE'S EMOTIONS IN THE ROOM AND REALTIME CREATE A LIVING PAINTING WHILE -- WHILE LITERALLY SMELLING A MOONFLOWER WHICH IS ONLY DAY BLOOMS IN AMAZONIA.

OF COURSE NO HARM TO THE FLOWER BECAUSE WE USE A HEAD SPACE TECHNOLOGY AND TELEPORT SCENT TO THE VISITORS BASED ON THEIR EMOTIONS.

AGAIN, RAISE ON THE GOOSE BUMPS.

I THINK IT'S A NEW FORM OF RENAISSANCE WE'RE IN AND I FEEL EXCITED TO CREATE THIS NEW FORM OF ART THAT HAS A DEPTH AND MEANING AND A PURPOSE AND A DISCOURSE AND CONTEXT.

>> SO IN THAT WAY, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU MINE SO MANY OF THE ARCHIVES, WHETHER IT IS FROM NATURE OR IN THESE MUSEUMS THEMSELVES, IS --DATA IS THE NEW PAINT FOR YOU?

IT IS THE NEW PAINT, IT IS THE NEW PAINTBRUSH.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT TO PEOPLE?

BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY SHOCKED AT HOW MUCH OF THE NATURAL WORLD YOU DUG INTO IN ORDER TO REALLY HAVE THIS IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE.

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, I BELIEVE NATURE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT, THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, AND THE MOST INSPIRING THING WE HAVE AS HUMANITY.

I THINK NATURE IS A FORM OF INTELLIGENCE LIKE AI AND AS IMPORTANT AS AI.

I FELT THAT TO PAY ATTENTION TO TAKE ATTENTION, NOT REPLACE NATURE, BUT TO UNDERSTAND, TO HAVE A CONVERSATION.

I THOUGHT THAT WE CAN DEDICATE AN AI MODEL CALLED --LARGE MODEL FOR AI.

FIRST WE HAVE FOR CONTRIBUTION FROM ONE OF THE BEST ARCHIVES IN THE WORLD, AND WE GOT PERMISSION TO USE HALF BILLION IMAGES.

AND INSIDE OF THOSE IMAGES WE HAVE FLORA, FAUNA, FUNGI, THE RAIN FOREST, YOU NAME IT.

AND WE FOUND THIS FORMATION.

AND WE USE THANKS TO OUR GOOGLE CLASS FRIENDS AND NOBEL LAUREATE, THEY ALLOW US TO USE SUSTAINABLE ENERGY.

WHICH MEANS THAT THE WHOLE MUSEUM IS USING LESS THAN ONE SMARTPHONE PER PERSON, BY THE WAY.

AND THEN THIS MODEL BECAME OUR FORM OF INTELLIGENCE, AND ALSO, WE WERE SO DEEPLY UNDERSTOOD THAT NATURE IS STILL VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND, EVEN THOUGH WE ARE TRYING TO GO TO SPACE AND UNDERSTAND OTHER FORMS OF INTELLIGENCE, I FELT THAT NATURE STILL ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WE HAVE FOR HUMANITY.

AND BY THE WAY, OUR MODEL IS ETHICAL, SUSTAINABLE, AND FREE FOR EVERYONE TO MAKE ART AND TO MAKE RESEARCH.

AND WE FOUND A PICTURE OF ART AND THE MUSEUMS CAN BE A GREAT PLACE, KIND OF A CAMPFIRE FOR HUMANITY WHERE WE CAN DISCUSS AND SHARE OPENLY AND HONESTLY THESE TECHNOLOGIES AND SHOW GOOD EXAMPLES FOR ANY AGE AND ANY BACKGROUND.

>> YOU KNOW, YOUR LACK OF TENSION BETWEEN TECHNOLOGY AND ART IS REALLY INSPIRING IN A WAY, BUT THERE IS SOME SERIOUS CRITICISM, RIGHT?

GENERATIVE AI HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF ABSORBING, JUST LAPPING UP ALL THE WORK OF ARTISTS, WRITER, PHOTOGRAPHERS WITHOUT MEANINGFUL CONSENT OR ANY COMPENSATION TO SPEAK OF.

YOU EMPHASIZE THAT YOUR LARGE NATURE MODEL IS TRAINED ON ETHICALLY SOURCED, AS YOU JUST DESCRIBED TO US.

BUT WHERE SHOULD WE SEE THE LINE DRAWN HERE?

BECAUSE AS I SAID, THE WORD I USED IS "TENSION. "

THERE IS FRICTION THERE.

>> YES.

FIRST OF ALL, I'M AN ARTIST AND I'M A TEACHER.

FOR TEN YEARS, I'M TEACHING THIS MEDIUM.

I CAN COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND BOTH SIDES OF THE WORLD.

FIRST OF ALL, I COMPLETELY AGREE IF AN ARTIST FEELS UNCOMFORTABLE TO USE SOMEONE ELSE'S DATA, THAT'S A FEELING.

IT'S A FACT.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ABOUT TECHNOLOGY OR INNOVATION OR DISCOVERIES OR SCIENCE, IT'S A PURE HUMAN FEELING.

I KNEW IT VERY WELL TEN YEARS AGO.

WHEN I TRAINED MY FIRST STUDIO MODEL WE HAVE TO TRAIN OUR OWN MODELS AND DATA SETS.

BY THE WAY, WE TRAVELED 16 RAIN FORESTS TO COLLECT FOR THIS PROCESS.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW HARD IT IS TO WORK WITH AI.

OF COURSE THERE ARE READY TOOLS AND TECHNOLOGIES AND SERVICES, BUT I BELIEVE THE FUTURE FOR ARTISTS IS TO CREATE THEIR OWN MODELS AND HAVE THEIR OWN VOCABULARY.

AND I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE IF YOU JOIN THE FORCES BETWEEN THE TECHNOLOGICAL LIKE PIONEERS AND BREAKTHROUGH MINDS AND SOULS, I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

I MEAN, WE SAW SOLVE THE ETHICAL DATA PROBLEM, AND I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT OF THE DATA MUSEUM IN THE WORLD, ARTIST LED THESE DISCUSSIONS.

ARTIST-LED PRACTICE HAS A DIFFERENT CONTEXT OF LIFE.

AND I DO BELIEVE FOR SCIENCE AROUND.

>> TREATMENT COMPLEX PROBLEMS OF HUMANITY, WE NEED EXTREME COMPLEX MODELS TO SOLVE THOSE PROBLEMS.

BUT FOR ART-MAKINGS, FOR CULTURE, FOR CONTEXT OF LIFE AND IMAGINATION, I BELIEVE ARTIST-LED PLATFORMS ARE NEEDED, HAS TO BE USED TO BRING SOLUTION TO MANY PROBLEMS.

>> NOW, REFIK, I ONLY HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT, BUT CAN YOU BRING US TO YOUR KITCHEN TABLE THEN?

BECAUSE YOUR CO-FOUNDER IS IN FACT YOUR PARTNER, YOUR WIFE, ERSUN.

SHE IS A PAINTER IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE.

WHAT DO YOU GUYS TALK ABOUT AT YOUR KITCHEN TABLE ABOUT THIS?

>> SO SHE IS AN INCREDIBLE PERSON THAT MORE THAN 18 YEARS WE ARE TOGETHER IN THIS JOURNEY.

AND MY TRUE COMPASS OF LIFE.

HE IS NOT ONLY CREATIVE, BUT EXTREMELY ILLOGICAL.

WHILE YOU DREAM, SHE GOT THE REALITY.

SO VERY GRATEFUL TO JOIN THE FORCES IN THIS LIFE TO CREATE ART.

>> AND NO TENSION THERE BETWEEN THE TRADITIONAL ARTISTS AND EVERYTHING YOU'VE BROUGHT TO THIS.

AS I SAID, SHE IS A CO-FOUNDER.

>> YES, SHE IS A CO-FOUNDER AND A TRUE BELIEVER OF THE FUTURE WE ARE GOING.

>> REFIK ANADOL, YOU HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY NOURISHMENT FOR THE SOUL THROUGH ALL OF THIS.

IT'S AN IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO WATCH YOUR WORK.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WELCOME TO LOS ANGELES.

>> EARLIER WHEN WE SPOKE ABOUT THE AI TECH RACE BETWEEN THE U. S. AND RYAN FROM DEPLOYING TECHNOLOGICAL ROBOTS MORE THAN ANY COUNTRIES DESIGNED TO BECOMING THE WORLD'S LARGEST MAKER OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES, IT'S CLEAR CHINA HAS MADE ENORMOUS STRIDES IN RECENT YEARS.

SO WHAT DOES THIS DOMINANCE MEAN FOR THE GLOBAL ORDER?

"THE NEW YORKER'S" EVAN OSNOS SPEAKS WITH WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HOW CHINA HAS PUSHED ITSELF FORWARD AND HELD ITSELF BACK.

>> THANK YOU, PAUL PA, AND EVAN OSNOS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE A NEW PIECE CALLED "THE FUTURE, MADE IN CHINA. "

YOU LIVED IN CHINA I THINK FROM 2005 TO 2023.

FIRST OF ALL, WHAT STRUCK YOU MOST WHEN YOU WENT BACK FOR A WEEK OR TWO TO DO THIS PIECE?

>> ONE THING THAT JUMPS OUT AT YOU RIGHT AWAY IS THAT TECHNOLOGY IS EVERYWHERE.

I THINK WE FEEL THAT IN OUR OWN LIVES IN THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IT IS EVEN MORE ACUTE WHEN YOU STEP INTO BEIJING.

I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

IF YOU GET ROOM SERVICE AT THE HOTEL, THERE IS A DECENT SHOT THAT WHEN YOU OPEN THE DOOR, THERE WILL BE A ROBOT THERE PAINTED TO LOOK LIKE A BUTLER, ABOUT SORT OF R2-D2 HEIGHT DELIVERING YOUR ROOM SERVICE.

AND THERE IS ALSO A KIND OF UNEASY ELEMENT TO THIS TOO.

OBVIOUSLY WE'RE AWARE OF CHINESE SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS EVERYWHERE.

YOU GET THE SENSE THAT EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IS BEING DOCUMENTED.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE'RE THINKING ABOUT IN THE UNITED STATES TOO, BUT IT CAN FEEL A LITTLE BIT LIKE A PREVIEW OF A WORLD TO COME WHEN YOU STEP INTO CHINA THESE DAYS.

>> AND YOU SAY IT'S BEING DOCUMENTED.

THE CAMERAS THAT FOLLOW YOU, THE FACIAL RECOGNITION.

BUT EVERY TIME SOMEBODY DOES AN EXCHANGE, A DIGIT TAM EXCHANGE, MONEY GETS EXCHANGED, WHATEVER, ALL OF THAT GOES TO A BIG DATABASE, RIGHT?

>> IT DOES.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S BEEN A BIG CHANGE IN CHINA IS THEY'VE ESSENTIALLY GOTTEN RID OF CASH OVER THE LAST DECADE.

PEOPLE MAY HAVE HEARD OF THAT.

WHEN YOU DO THAT, WHEN YOU'RE PAYING FOR EVERY CONVENIENCE STORE VISIT, EVERY TAXI TRIP, EVERY TIME YOU TAKE OUT A BICYCLE ON A RIDE SHARE, ALL THAT OF IS FEEDING INTO THE SYSTEM THAT KNOWS WHERE YOU ARE AT ANY MOMENT, WHAT YOUR PREFERENCES ARE, WHAT YOUR TASTES ARE.

SO IN SOME WAYS, IT DRAWS YOU IN MORE DEEPLY BECAUSE ALL OF THE SUDDEN YOU'RE BEING SERVED PRODUCTS ONLINE THAT LOOK PARTICULARLY ATTRACTIVE TO YOU BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT YOU LIKE.

SO IT IS A FASCINATING PLUNGE INTO THE WORLD OF THE ALGORITHMIC ERA MORE THOROUGHLY THAN WE'VE FELT EVEN HERE IN AMERICA.

>> ONE THING THAT MAKES THAT PARTICULARLY INTERESTING IS THAT IN ORDER TO HAVE GOOD ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, GOOD AI IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT THE SOFTWARE THAT RUNS THE AI, IT'S ABOUT THE DATA UPON WHICH IT TRAINS.

ARE THEY CREATING THESE HUGE POOLS OF DATE A THAT WILL GIVE THEM AN AI ADVANTAGE?

>> THEY ARE.

IN MANY WAYS THEY DECIDED AS ONE VENTURE CAPITALIST PUT IT THAT CHINA COULD BE THE SAUDI ARABIA OF DATA.

MEANING WHAT OIL WAS FOR THE 20th CENTURY, DATA COULD BE THE MAKING OF WEALTH AND POWER IN A NEW CENTURY.

AND THERE ARE SOME PLUSES AND MINUSES THAT COME WITH THAT.

BY HOOVERING UP ALL OF THIS DATA IN EVERYDAY LIVES, THEY GET AN EXTRAORDINARY PORTRAIT OF NOT ONLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING NOW BUT WHAT YOU MIGHT SEEK TO DO.

THAT'S VERY HELPFUL FOR THINGS LIKE CHINESE POLICE AGENCIES, BUT IT ALSO TRUE THAT IT ALLOWS COMPANIES TO SELL YOU THINGS EFFECTIVELY.

I THINK THERE IS A DEBATE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT IS WHERE DO WE WANT TO BE OBSERVED AND WHERE DO WE WANT TO HAVE THESE ZONES OF PRIVACY, WHERE WE SAY OKAY, WE'RE INTERESTED IN YOU HELPING US, MAYBE IMPROVE MEDICAL CARE AND HEALTH CARE, BUT WE'D LIKE YOU TO STAY OUT OF DECISIONS WHEN IT COMES TO MORE PRIVATE THINGS.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU --A DEBATE YOU CAN HAVE IN THE U. S. , AND YOU CAN'T REALLY HAVE IT IN CHINA.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT DEBATE IN THE UNITED STATES IS WE PRETTY MUCH FREELY GIVE UPDATE THAT TO --DATA TO COMPANIES.

AMAZON, EVERYTHING I DO WHETHER IT'S GOOGLE, AMAZON, ANTHROPIC, THEY TEND TO UNDERSTAND ME.

BUT WE'RE VERY AFRAID OF THE GOVERNMENT DOING THAT.

IS THAT DIFFERENT IN CHINA?

>> YEAH.

IN CHINA --WELL, TO BE FRANK ABOUT IT, WALTER, THEY DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF TELLING YOU AS A VISITOR THAT THEY'RE UNEASY ABOUT GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE, THAT'S FOR SURE.

BUT THERE IS ANOTHER THING HAPPENING WHICH IS CHINESE LIFE DURING THE COMPUTING ERA, WHICH FOR ALL OF US HAS BEEN THE PAST HALF CENTURY, CHINESE LIFE HAS IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY FROM THAT TIME.

IT USED TO BE THAT 3/4 OF THE POPULATION WORKED IN AGRICULTURE.

TODAY IT'S DOWN TO LESS THAN 25%.

SO THEY TEND TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE TOLERANT PERHAPS, A LITTLE MORE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT TECHNOLOGY WHEN WE ARE IN OUR COUNTRY WEARIER.

WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE SOCIAL MEDIA ERA WHERE PEOPLE SAID LOOK, THERE ARE NEGATIVES FOR OUR DEMOCRACY, FOR OUR EMOTIONAL HEALTH.

SO THERE IS A KIND OF ROBUST PUBLIC CONVERSATION HERE WHEREAS IN CHINA IN MANY CASES IT'S FULL SPEED AHEAD, WHETHER YOU WANT IT OR NOT.

>> YEAH YOU SAY THE LESS WARY ABOUT TECHNOLOGY THAN WE ARE HERE.

WE KIND OF SEE DATA CENTERS OR AI, WE KIND OF GET WARY.

BUT THEY'RE ALSO, YOU WRITE IN THE PIECE, THEY'RE LESS WARY ABOUT DATA COLLECTION.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> IT IS.

I THINK PEOPLE HAVE COME TO ASSUME OVER THERE THAT ANYTHING YOU'RE DOING, AS ONE PERSON PUT IT TO ME, ANYTHING YOU'RE DOING CAN BE WATCHED AT ANY TIME.

IT'S BECOME A FEATURE OF THE MODERN LIFE.

AS A RESULT, YES, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE UNEASY ABOUT IT.

OCCASIONALLY YOU RUN INTO SOMEBODY WHO SAYS I AM NOT ON WE CHAT, BUT IT'S RELATIVELY RARE.

HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE.

IN THE WEST, AS LET'S CALL IT WHAT IT IS, AS FLAWED AS DEMOCRACY CAN SEEM US TO RIGHT NOW, THERE IS ALSO A PLACE WHERE YOU'RE ABLE TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF PUBLIC DEBATES ABOUT IT.

CHINA IS FORGING AHEAD.

THEY SAID FROM THE TOP LEVEL DOWN, THE COMMUNIST PARTY SAYS WE THINK IT'S BETTER FOR US TO HAVE DATA, TO USE IT FOR ALL KINDS OF ADVANCED PURPOSES, AND WE'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD WITH IT.

SO THAT CREATES THE TENSION.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT TOP DOWN, YOU TALK ABOUT THE SOCIAL ENGINEERING THAT CAN BE DONE WHEN THE GOVERNMENT HAS THAT POWER.

ONE OF THE GREAT FAILURES, TRAGEDY OF SOCIAL ENGINEERING FROM YOUR PIECE, KIND OF KNEW IT, BUT IT HIT ME, WAS THE ONE CHILD POLICY THAT WAS SOCIAL ENGINEERING.

HOW HAS THAT AFFECTED CHINA TODAY?

>> IT'S BEEN A FASCINATING STORY.

PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER THE ONE-CHILD POLICY WAS ADOPTED IN THE EARLY '80s.

BASICALLY, THEY TRIED TO REDUCE THE POPULATION SO MORE PEOPLE COULD HAVE A LARGER SHARE OF THE PIE.

BUT THE NET EFFECT WAS ACTUALLY AN ECONOMIC FIASCO.

TODAY AS A RESULT OF THESE CURBS ON POPULATION GROWTH, THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WORKERS TO BE ABLE TO FILL THE KINDS OF JOBS THAT THEY NEED TO TAKE CARE OF THE ELDERLY.

THEY HAVE A REAL INBALANCE IN SOCIETY.

THEY'RE STRUGGLING, FOR INSTANCE, TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY WORKERS 20, 30 YEARS DOWN THE ROAD AT THE SAME THEY HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT IN YOUNG PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WERE TRAINED IN UNIVERSITIES GEARED FOR YESTERDAY, NOT TOMORROW.

>> STOP THERE.

I DON'T QUITE GET THAT WHY UNEMPLOYMENT CAN BE 20% AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE, AND YET THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF YOUNG PEOPLE.

>> WELL, WHAT YOU HAVE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO STUDIED THE KINDS OF MAJORS AREN'T THAT DIFFERENT THAN PEOPLE WE HAVE IN OUR COUNTRY THAT MADE SENSE FIVE YEARS AGO, EVEN TWO YEARS AGO.

BUT AS SOMEBODY WHO WORKS IN AI TOLD ME RECENTLY, IN CHINA, I HAVE A 15-YEAR-OLD SON.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT KID SHOULD BE STUDYING IN COLLEGE WHEN HE GOES OFF IN TWO YEARS.

HE SAID AI IS THE HOT NEW MAJOR, BUT AI MIGHT NOT EVEN BE A MAJOR IN TEN YEARS.

SO THE TAKE AWAY FROM THE ONE-CHILD POLICY HISTORY IS WHEN YOU TRY SOCIAL ENGINEERING ON A BROAD BASIS LIKE THIS, IT CAN SEEM AS IF YOU'RE JUST TWISTING THE DIALS OF SOCIETY AND MAKING GREAT ADVANCEMENTS, BUT YOU'RE ALSO EXPOSING YOURSELVES TO THE RISK THAT TAKING A GIANT LEAP OF THAT TIME EXPOSES YOU ULTIMATELY TO BIGGER DOWNSIDES LIKE THE KIND OF ECONOMIC UNEMPLOYMENT PROBLEMS THAT THEY'RE FACING TODAY.

>> YEAH, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME ABOUT THE ONE-CHILD POLICY IS OKAY, THAT WAS A BAD IDEA, LET'S REVERSE IT.

LET'S LIFT IT.

AND YET THE BIRTH RATE IN CHINA CONTINUES TO GO DOWN.

IT'S EVEN LOWER THAN THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, LESS THAN THE TWO PER FAMILY REPLACEMENT RATE YOU NEED.

>> IT IS.

>> WHY DOES IT STAY LOW?

>> I THINK THIS IS THE BIGGEST STORY IN CHINA RIGHT NOW, WALTER, IS THIS QUESTION OF WHY PEOPLE AREN'T HAVING KIDS.

AND THE ANSWER WHEN YOU TALK TO THEM, AND I'VE HAD A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUNG PEOPLE, KIND OF MARRYING AGE, CHILD BEARING AGE, AND THEY SAY THEY DON'T FEEL CONFIDENT ABOUT THE FUTURE.

THEY FEEL TREMENDOUS UNEASE.

FRANKLY, THEY'RE UNEASY WITH THE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT INTRUSION INTO PRIVATE LIFE THAT'S GROWN OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

THEY'RE UNEASY ABOUT WHAT THE AI ERA WILL MEAN FOR THEIR EMPLOYMENT.

WILL THEY BE ABLE TO PAY FOR EDUCATION, HEALTH CARE FOR KIDS IF THEY HAVE THEM.

SO IN SOME WAYS, YOU CAN GO TO A PLACE LIKE SHANGHAI, AND AS SOMEBODY SAID TO ME, KIT FEEL LIKE TRULY ONE OF THE GREATEST CITIES IN THE WORLD.

BUT IF PEOPLE AREN'T CHOOSING TO BRING THEIR CHILDREN INTO THAT FUTURE, WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU ABOUT THE UNDERLYING MOOD IN THE COUNTRY.

>> WELL, IT'S NOT JUST CHINA, IT'S TRUE IN JAPAN, ITALY, THE UNITED STATES, WESTERN EUROPE.

IS THIS PART OF A LARGER GLOBAL TREND, OR IS THERE SOMETHING PARTICULAR ABOUT CHINA?

>> IT'S BOTH.

THE GLOBAL TREND IS REAL.

YOU SEE THAT AS A COUNTRY INDUSTRIALIZES, AS A COUNTRY GETS MORE URBANIZED THAT PEOPLE DO HAVE SMALLER FAMILIES.

WE SEE THIS IN KOREA AND JAPAN AND ELSEWHERE.

BUT IN CHINA THE NUMBERS STAND OUT THERE.

IS NOW ESSENTIALLY ONE CHILD PER WOMAN IN CHINA, THAT'S THE FERTILITY RATE.

IT'S THE LOWEST RATE THEY'VE HAD SINCE 1949 WHEN THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC WAS FOUNDED AND THEY STARTED KEEPING THESE RECORDS.

THEY'RE DEALING WITH A PROBLEM THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SOLVE WITH POLICY.

THEY TRIED SAYING WE'LL GIVE YOU SUBSIDIZED HEALTH CARE OR FERTILITY TREATMENTS.

THEY'VE GIVEN ACTUALLY PEOPLE INDUCEMENTS.

WE'LL GIVE YOU MONEY IF YOU HAVE KIDS.

IT'S NOT WORKING.

AND IF YOU TALK TO DEMOGRAPHERS, THAT'S BECAUSE THE ISSUE IS ACTUALLY NOR SPIRITUAL AND INTERIOR.

IT'S REALLY PSYCHOLOGICAL.

IT'S ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FUNDAMENTALLY FEEL ABOUT THEIR LEVEL OF PERSONAL AGENCY IN THE FUTURE.

AND THAT I THINK IN SOME WAYS THE MISSING PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW DO YOU GIVE YOUNG PEOPLE A FEELING THAT THEY HAVE A HAND IN SHAPING THIS FUTURE THAT'S COMING DOWN THE PIKE AT US.

>> THIS IDEA OF CHINA LEAPING AHEAD AND SURPASSING US ON SO MANY TECHNOLOGIES RIGHT NOW IS THE THEME OF YOUR PIECE, BUT THERE'S A PAPER THAT SOMEBODY WROTE ABOUT IT WITH A TITLE THAT JUST REALLY STRUCK ME, AND THE TITLE WAS "THANK TRUMP. "

TO WHAT EXTENT IS TRUMP'S POLICIES CAUSING THIS?

>> TRUMP'S POLICIES HAVE BEEN A BIG PIECE OF THIS STORY, IT TURNS OUT.

WHEN THE TRUMP --WHEN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CAME IN BACK IN 2017, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHINA REALIZED BECAUSE THEY WERE NOW DEALING WITH A TRADE WAR WAS YOU KNOW WHAT?

THE FUTURE LOOKS ROCKY.

WE NEED TO DEPEND ON OURSELVES.

AND THEN WHEN TRUMP CAME BACK IN FOR A SECOND TERM, THIS WAS A BIG CLARIFYING MOMENT.

AS WE REMEMBERED, HE WENT, IN A SENSE, WENT UP AGAINST BIG RESEARCH UNIVERSITIES IN THE UNITED STATES, GOING TO BATTLE AGAINST HARVARD, CUTTING FUNDING IN PLACES FOR THINGS LIKE BASIC RESEARCH.

CHINA SAID, AND THEY SAID IT VERY EXPLICITLY, THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US.

LAST YEAR, CHINA EXPANDED ITS INVESTMENT IN BASIC R&D BY 7%.

THIS WAS A RECORD.

THIS IS ON TOP OF LARGE FEDERAL INVESTMENTS IN RESEARCH AND SCIENCE OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

THE NET EFFECT IS THAT CHINA NOW TODAY IS DOING MORE CLINICAL TRIALS, FOR INSTANCE, THAN THE UNITED STATES IS DOING.

THEIR SHIP BUILDING CAPABILITY IS 200 TIMES AS LARGE.

THEY'RE NOW PRODUCING 70% OF THE WORLD'S ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

LITHIUM- ION BATTERIES, SOLAR CELLS.

ALL OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES, WALTER WHICH WERE INVENTED IN MANY CASES IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT CHINA HAS INVESTED HEAVILY IN SAYING HOW DO WE MAST THEY'RE MANUFACTURING, HOW DO WE LEAP AHEAD AND SOLVE THAT CHALLENGE FOR OURSELVES AND ALSO DOMINATE THE MANUFACTURING FOR THE FUTURE.

>> DOES THAT ALSO INCLUDE THINGS LIKE BIOTECH PATENTS?

BECAUSE WE TALK SO MUCH ABOUT DIGITAL, BUT PART OF THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE BIOTECH, FINDING THE VACCINES FOR CANCER.

>> IT REALLY IS.

BIOTECH IS THE NEXT BIG REVOLUTION THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE COMING OUT OF CHINA.

AND I THINK THEY HAVE --I'LL TELL YOU, TEN YEARS AGO, WALTER, WHEN I WOULD GO AND TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT HEALTH CARE, RESEARCH, AND BIOTECH IN CHINA.

THAT WOULD SAY, LOOK, THIS PLACE IS NOT READY FOR "PRIME TIME" THERE WAS A LOT OF FRAUDULENT RESEARCH.

IT WAS JUST A PLACE THAT TURNED OUT GENERIC DRUGS.

TODAY CHINA IS TURNING OUT, THE HELP OF AI, A LOT OF POTENTIALLY PROMISING DRUG CANDIDATES THAT FOREIGN COMPANIES, THE BIG PHARMA GIANTS IN THE WEST ARE THEN LICENSING FROM CHINA.

AS ONE AMERICAN EXECUTIVE SAID TO ME, WE ARE WORRIED THAT CHINA IS GOING TO DO TO BIOTECH WHAT IT DID TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES, MEANING CHINA HAS NOW SURPASSED TESLA IN TERMS OF SALES OF ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

SO IF CHINA GETS THE NEXT GENERATION OF TECHNOLOGY LIKE BIOTECH, AI, AND ROBOTICS AS ONE AMERICAN SCHOLAR SAID, THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGES THE WORLD.

SO THE RACE IS ON FOR THE UNITED STATES TO COMPETE NOW.

>> WELL, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE BIOTECH, AND YOU'VE BEEN QUOTED THOSE EXECUTIVES, YOU HAVE VERY TECHNICAL TERMS WHICH I'M NOT SURE I CAN USE ON PUBLIC TELEVISION, WHICH IS WE SCARED ALL OF THIS F'ING TALENT BACK TO CHINA.

THIS IS AN AMERICAN EXECUTIVE SAYING THAT THE TALENT USED TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES IS NOW BEING SCARED BACK TO CHINA.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> PEOPLE MAY REMEMBER THAT DURING THE FIRST TRUMP TERM, THERE WAS AN INITIATIVE UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CALLED THE CHINA INITIATIVE, WHICH WAS GOING AFTER THE PROBLEMS OF ESPIONAGE AND TRADE THEFT.

THESE ARE REAL ISSUES.

AND CHINA IS NOT THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT'S STEALING.

THE UNITED STATES DOES A FAIR AMOUNT OF ESPIONAGE ITSELF.

BUT AS A RESULT, WHEN CHINA WAS ARGUED THE IN THIS WAY OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST DECADE OR SO, ACCORDING TO STUDIES, SOME 20,000 CHINESE SCIENTISTS HAVE LEFT THE UNITED STATES AND GONE BACK TO CHINA AND ELSEWHERE.

THIS IS A BIG REVERSE BRAIN DRAIN, BUT IT IS ALSO IN SOME WAYS STOCKS THE CABINET IN CHINA WITH SCIENTIFIC TALENT.

AND THEN ON TOP OF IT, YOU HAD THE CUTBACKS IN RESEARCH FUNDS AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST TWO YEARS BECAUSE OF CHOICES BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SO IT CREATES AN INCENTIVE FOR CHINESE SCIENTISTS TO GO BACK TO THEIR OWN -- TO THE COUNTRIES WHERE MANY IN CASES THEY WERE TRAINED AND GREW UP AND PUSH FORWARD THE FRONTIER OF SCIENCE THAT THE UNITED STATES FOR THE MOMENT HAS HAD TROUBLE SUPPORTING.

>> SINCE WE'RE SAYING HOW GREAT CHINA HAS THE WIND ASBESTOS AT ITS BACK, WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL BAD THINGS THAT ARE CAUSING PROBLEMS IN CHINA?

>> WELL, YOU HAVE SOME SERIOUS ISSUES AROUND THE ECONOMY, PARTICULARLY THE REAL ESTATE SECTOR.

THIS IS A CASE WHERE FOR MANY YEARS CHINA BELIEVED THAT ITS ECONOMIC FUTURE DEPEND ON POURING AS MUCH MONEY INTO REAL ESTATE AS POSSIBLE, EVEN WHEN THEY WERE BUILDING HOMES AND APARTMENTS THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T NEED.

AT A CERTAIN POINT, AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, A MARKET LIKE THAT CRASHES.

BEGINNING IN 2021, THE CHINESE PROPERTY MARKET HAS COLLAPSED TO TODAY PEOPLE ARE SPENDING ABOUT HALF AS MUCH FOR NEW HOMES IN SOME PLACES THEY WERE EVEN FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.

THERE ARE NOW SO MANY EMPTY HOMES IN CHINA RIGHT NOW, WALTER, THAT YOU COULD IN FACT HOUSE THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF RUSSIA JUST IN THESE EMPTY KIND OF GHOST APARTMENTS.

THAT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

>> IS THAT A PROBLEM WITH CENTRAL PLANNING?

>> IT ABSOLUTELY.

CENTRAL PLANNING IS THE PROBLEM HERE.

WHEN YOU HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT IS ULTIMATELY DIRECTED FROM THE TOP, WHAT YOU LOSE IS THE ABILITY TO PICK UP SIGNALS WHEN THINGS ARE GOING WRONG.

SO AS IN THE CASE OF THE ONE-CHILD POLICY, OR IN THE CASE OF THE REAL ESTATE CRISIS, THERE WERE SIGNALS SAYING TO THEM WE NEED TO SLOW DOWN OR RECONSIDER.

BUT AT THAT POINT WHEN THE POLICY IS CHOSEN, THEY'LL CONTINUE DOWN THE TRACK, AND IT'S HARDER TO CHANGE IT THAN IT IS IN A MORE FREE MARKET ECONOMY.

AND THAT'S SORT OF THE TENSION HERE BETWEEN THESE TWO DIFFERENT APPROACHES TO THE TECHNOLOGICAL FUTURE.

IN SOME CASES THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO SAY WELL, THE UNITED STATES COULD TAKE A NOTE FROM CHINA AND DO A BIT MORE INDUSTRIAL POLICY, SOMETHING THAT USED TO BE ALLERGY TO US HERE, BUT NOW SEEMS MORE ATTRACTIVE IF YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE BIG INVESTMENTS IN MICROCHIP MANUFACTURING AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO COPY TOO MUCH OF THE CHINESE SYSTEM OR YOU CHOKE OFF THE KIND OF INNOVATION THAT HAS PRODUCED AMERICAN INVENTIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> WE TALK ABOUT THE RACE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES, WHETHER IT BE ON AGI, BIOTECH, ALL THE TARIFFS THAT ARE FLYING BACK AND FORTH.

TELL ME, YOU'VE BEEN CHINA EXPERT FOR 20, 30 YEARS NOW.

DOES IT HAVE TO BE A ZERO SUM GAIN, OR IS THERE A WAY IN WHICH THE U. S. AND CHINA CAN WORK WITH SOME COMPETITION, BUT LOT OF COOPERATION TOWARDS A SHARED BETTER VISION?

>> I THINK YOU'VE PUT IT WELL.

I THINK WE'RE COMING TO THE REALIZATION, AND THIS IS FOR ME THE RESULT OF 30 YEARS OF STUDYING AND WORKING IN CHINA THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF IMAGINING THAT CHINA IS SUDDENLY GOING TO DISAPPEAR FROM THE WORLD STAGE.

IT IS A FACT OF OUR LIVES.

AND THESE TWO BIG POWERFUL COUNTRIES, AMBITIOUS COUNTRIES HAVE TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO CO-EXIST, PARTICULARLY NOW THAT WE'VE DEVELOPED THESE ENORMOUSLY POWERFUL TECHNOLOGIES IN AI.

I THINK WE'RE HEADING TOWARDS AN ERA, AND IT REMINDS US A LITTLE BIT OF A MOMENT IN THE COLD WAR, NOT A PERFECT ANALOGY, BUT USEFUL ONE.

WHEN THE SOVIET UNION AND THE UNITED STATES BOTH REALIZED THAT WE'RE BOTH NUCLEAR ARMED NATIONS, IF WE DON'T FIGURE OUT A WAY TO TALK ABOUT THESE TECHNOLOGIES, THESE WEAPONS, WE'RE GOING TO FIND OURSELVES IN A DANGEROUS SITUATION THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE CALLING IT FOR NOW THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND COME UP WITH SOME RULES OF THE ROAD TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE TECHNOLOGIES DO NOT GET OUT OF CONTROL BEFORE WE'RE ABLE TO MAKE THE BEST OF THEM.

>> EVAN OSNOS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, THE GREATEST ARMS I'VE EVER SEEN.

THAT'S HOW MATT DAMON DESCRIBED HIS FORMIDABLE 4'6" STUNTWOMAN, DEVYN DALTON.

SHE IS ONE OF THOSE INVISIBLE WARRIORS PROPPING UP CHRISTOPHER NOLAN'S NEW MOVIE "THE ODYSSEY," STUNT DOUBLING FOR DAMON'S CHARACTER, ODYSSEUS WHEN HE COMES FACE-TO-FACE WITH A GROUP OF GIANT CANNIBALS, ALSO KNOWN AS THE STROGOTHIANS.

HER HITE AND HER MUSCULAR BICEPS MADE HER THE PERFECT STAND-IN TO DEMONSTRATE ODYSSEUS BEING DWARFED.

STANDING IN FOR A MAN FOR THE FIRST TIME, DALTON MADE SURE TO GIVE THIS EXCITING OPPORTUNITY HER ALL.

HERE IS WHAT SHE TOLD CNN.

>> I WAS ALREADY READY TO GO WHEN I GOT THE CALL, BUT I DEFINITELY WAS DOING A LOT OF PULL-UPS, A LOT OF PUSH-UPS, I LOVE BODY WEIGHT STUFF BECAUSE I THINK IT'S JUST AMAZING.

AND DEFINITELY WORKING IN BICEP WORKOUTS ABOUT THREE TIMES A WEEK TO GET THAT EXTRA GROWTH.

I REALLY WANTED TO IMPRESS MATT.

SO I'M SO HAPPY THAT HE IS THRILLED.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO. "

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.