>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> ISRAEL SAID IT KILLED IRAN'S SECURITY CHIEF.

CALLING IT A SIGNIFICANT BLOW TO THE REGIME.

MIDDLE EAST EXPERT KARIM SADJADPOUR JOINS ME TO DISCUSS WHAT'S NEXT.

AND JUMONEY KARADSHEH REPORTS ON THE IRANIANS CAUGHT BETWEEN STRIKES AND SECURITY FORCES.

>> THEN -- >> AT LEAST 400 REPORTEDLY KILLED IN AN AIR STRIKE ON AN AFGHAN HOSPITAL, ADDING YET MORE SUFFERING FOR CIVILIANS THERE.

I SPEAK TO AFGHAN LAWMAKER FAWZIA KOOFI.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE AVERAGE OF THESE MODELS THEIR ACCURACY RATE IS AS LOW AS 50%.

>> IT ROLE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IN MILITARY'S STRATEGY AND BEYOND.

A. I. SCIENTIST HEIDY KHLAAF JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO SHARE HER CONCERNS ABOUT AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

IRAN'S TOP OFFICIAL, HAS QUOTE, BEEN ELIMINATED.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO IRAN'S TOP DEFENSE MINISTER WHO SAYS ALI LARIJANI WAS KILLED IN AN AIR STRIKE.

>> I WAS JUST UPDATED BY THE CHIEF OF STAFF THE SECRETARY OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, ALI LARIJANI, AND THE HEAD OF, SOLIMANI WERE ELIMINATED LAST NIGHT AND JOINED THE ELIMINATION PROGRAM KHAMENEI AND ALL THE ELIMINATED AXES OF EVIL IN THE DEPTH OF HELL.

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND I HAVE INSTRUCTED TO CONTINUE HUNTING THE TERROR OF IRAN AND SEVER THE HEAD OF THE OCTOPUS AND NOT ALLOW IT TO GROW.

>> LARIJANI WAS ONE OF IRAN'S TOP DECISION MAKERS, SOME CALLING HIM THE DE FACTO LEADER SINCE THE ASSASSINATION OF HIS FORMER BOSS, THE SUPREME LEADER AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI.

THE IDF IS PRESSING ON WITH ITS OFFENSIVE, CONDUCTING WIDE SCALE ATTACKS ACROSS IRAN, AND IRAN IS RETALIATING, LAUNCHING STRIKES ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST FROM THE U. S. EMBASSY IN IRAQ TO ENERGY FACILITIES IN THE UAE.

FOR CIVILIANS ON THE GROUND THE REALITY IS HARROWING.

SINCE THE WAR BEGAN MORE THAN TWO WEEKS AGO MORE THAN 1,300 IRANIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN U. S. AND ISRAELI STRIKES THATCHIMATE IS ACCORDING TO IRANIAN OFFICIALS.

IT'S NOT JUST FIRE FROM THE SKY THEY FEAR.

THE GOVERNMENT IS EXPLICITLY THREATENING WOULD-BE PROTESTERS WHO MIGHT LOOK TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE CHAOS, EVEN TELLING PEOPLE NOT TO MARK TONIGHT'S TRADITIONAL ZOROASTRIAN FIRE VESTIVAL WHICH LEADS UP TO THE PERSIAN NEW YEAR, NOWRUZ.

>> CELEBRATING THE DEATH OF THEIR OPPRESSOR.

THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD SAW COMING OUT OF IRAN LAST MONTH AFTER AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI WAS KILLED, BUT CLOAKED IN DIGITAL DARKNESS A NEW WAVE OF BRUTAL SUPPRESSION WAS ALREADY BEGINNING.

TEENAGE BROTHERS AWE MED RIZA AND AMIR WERE AMONG THE CROWDS THAT POURED INTO THE STREETS ON FEBRUARY 28th.

THIS IS THE CAR THEY WERE IN WITH THEIR FATHER, HONKING THE HOSH IN CELEBRATION.

SECURITY FORCES OPENED FIRE ON THEM, ACCORDING TO ACTIVISTS, KILLING THE 15 AND 19- YEAR-OLD BOYS.

AS THE REGIME FACES AMERICA AND ISRAEL FROM THE SKY, IT IS TIGHTENING ITS GRIP ON THE GROUND DETERMINED TO EXTINGUISH ANY EMBER OF AN UPRISING.

TWO MONTHS AGO IT DID JUST THAT, KILLING THOUSANDS OF PROTESTERS IN THE BLOODIEST CRACKDOWN IN THE HISTORY OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

IRANIANS STILL REELING FROM THE COLLECTIVE TRAUMA OF JANUARY 8th AND 9th NOW BEING WARNED TAKE TO THE STREETS, AND IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> OUR TEAM HAVE THEIR FINGERS ON THE TRIGGER.

>> THE CHIEF OF POLICE THREATENING PROTESTERS THEY WILL BE TREATED AS THE ENEMY AND SHOT.

THE FEARED ISLAMIC REVOLUTIONARY GUARD CORP PROMISING ANOTHER MASSACRE OF PROTESTERS.

THIS TIME THEY SAY IT WILL STRIKE HARDER THAN THEY DID IN JANUARY.

MESSAGES WE'VE RECEIVED FROM IRANIANS INSIDE THE COUNTRY DESCRIBE A REGIME USING EVERY TOOL IN ITS PLAYBOOK TO CRUSH DESCENT.

>> EVERY TIME YOU GO OUTSIDE EVEN JUST TO GO TO THE MARKET, YOU SEE MACHINE GUNS AND HEAVY GUNS ON THE STREETS.

EVERYONE IS AFRAID OF THE CHECKPOINTS.

THEY ARE BASICALLY THE REGIME'S STRICT LEVEL ENFORCERS.

>> PEOPLE ARE RANDOMLY BEING CHECKED.

THEIR PHONE'S BEING SEARCHED, BEING ASKED QUESTIONS LIKE WHAT ARE YOU DOING OUT HERE?

THEY EVEN ARREST AND TAKE THEM FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

>> VIDEO TRICKLING OUT ONLY A SMALL WINDOW INTO THIS NEW CLIMATE OF FEAR.

IRAN IS A SUPER POWER, THEY CHANT.

IRANIANS ARE PROUD.

REGIME SUPPORTERS ROAM THE STREETS AT NIGHT WITH A MENACING MESSAGE.

THEY ARE STILL HERE.

THEY ARE STILL IN CONTROL.

STATE MEDIA, LIKE SO MANY TIMES BEFORE, HAS BEEN AIRING VIDEOS OF THOSE ARRESTED ALLEGEDLY CONFESSING TO BEING FOREIGN AGENTS.

TEXT MESSAGES LIKE THIS ONE WARN THOSE WHO FIND A WAY AROUND THE IMPOSED INTERNET BLACKOUT WILL BE TREATED AS SPIES.

THIS CRACKDOWN ONLY EXPECTED TO GET WORSE AS OUTSIDE FORCES THAT WANT TO OVERTHROW THIS REGIME ADD FUEL TO THE FIRE.

>> WE ARE NOW AT THE DECISIVE STAGE OF OUR FINAL STRUGGLE.

AWAIT MY FINAL CALL.

>> THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER TELLING IRANIANS HIS FORCES ARE, QUOTE, CREATING THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND FOR THEM TO RISE UP.

AS THE IDF RELEASES VIDEO LIKE THIS SHOWING WHAT IT SAYS ARE ATTACKS ON REGIME CHECKPOINTS THAT HAVE BECOME A MAJOR INSTRUMENT OF SUPPRESSION AND KILLING THE REGIME'S TOP LEADERSHIP ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

AN UPRISING SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW FOR THOSE WHO FIND THEMSELVES TRAPPED BETWEEN TWO HELLS.

FROM INSIDE THEIR HOMES THEY STILL DEFIANTLY CHEER AGAINST THE REGIME THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN HAS FAILED TO SILENCE A PEOPLE RISKING IT ALL FOR FREEDOM.

>> OUR THANKS TO JUMONEY KARADSHEH REPORTING THERE.

FOR MORE LET'S BRING IN MIDDLE EAST EXPERT KARIM SADJADPOUR.

IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU AND HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

LET'S JUST START THERE WHERE JOUMANNA'S PIECE LEFT OFF, AND THAT IS THE TRAUMATIZED PEOPLE OF IRAN, WHO SHE SAYS SEEM JUST NOT CAPABLE OF THIS POINT COMING TO THE STREETS WITH AN UPRISING.

TO QUOTE HER, UP RISING SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT NOW.

WITH THE DEATHS, THOUGH THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CONFIRMED BY IRAN, BY ALI LARIJANI AND THE HEAD OF THE BESIEGED MILITIA, DOES THAT POSSIBILITY OPEN UP A BIT?

>> BIANNA, I THINK JOMANA PUT IT REALLY WELL, THIS IS A POPULATION TRAPPED BETWEEN TWO HELLS.

THE HELL OF WAR AND THE HELL OF A AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

HE WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS UNIQUE IN THAT HE HAD DECADES OF BOTH DOMESTIC AND FOREIGN POLICY EXPERTISE EXPERIENCE.

HE HAD DECADES OF INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY.

AND IN HIS ABSENCE HE LEAVES BEHIND A MUCH LESS COMPETENT REGIME THAN BEFORE, BUT IT IS A REGIME WHICH REMAINS EQUALLY BRUTAL.

IT STILL BELIEVES THAT IF IT DOESN'T STAY IN POWER, IF IT LOSES POWER, IT'S GOING TO BE KILLED.

AND FOR THAT REASON I THINK, AS WE SAW LAST JANUARY, IT REMAINS A REGIME WHICH THE ONLY THING IT REALLY DOES EFFECTIVELY IS REPRESSION.

AND IT'S WILLING TO KILL --CONTINUES TO KILL MANY THOUSANDS OF ITS POPULATION TO STAY IN POWER.

>> THE SYSTEM'S TOP ENFORCERS NOW GONE WHO IS ACTUALLY CALLING THE SHOTS IN TEHRAN NOW?

>> ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE NOW IN THE AFTERMATH OF LARIJANI'S DEATH I THINK IS THE SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT.

HE WAS ALREADY A VERY IMPORTANT FIGURE GIVEN HIS CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NEW SUPREME LEADER.

HE ALSO HAS A BACKGROUND AS A REVOLUTIONARY GUARD COMMANDER.

AND WHAT I'VE NOTICED IS THAT IN THESE THREE WEEKS OF WAR IT'S A REGIME WHICH HAS REALLY CLOSED RANKS AROUND THE PRINCIPALS OF THE 1979 REVOLUTION, EVEN SOME A YEAR OR TWO PRIOR WOULD HAVE THOUGHT TO BE A LITTLE MORE PRAGMATIC.

PUBLICLY THEY'VE ALL DOUBLED DOWN ON REVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGY, AND THAT'S CERTAINLY THE CASE WITH HIM.

>> THAT IS PICKING UP ON SOMETHING WITH IRAN OBSERVERS, A POINT THEY HAVE MADE IN THE LAST FEW HOURS SINCE REPORTS OF LARIJANI'S DEATH.

AND THAT WAS THAT IF HE WAS CONSIDERED A MODERATE BY REGIME STANDARDS, IS IT FAIR TO ASSUME, AS SOME ARE, THAT HE WILL INEVITABLY BE REPLACED BY A HARD LINER?

>> WELL, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REALITIES OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN.

LARIJANI WAS DIRECTLY IMPLICATED IN THE MASSACRE OF PERHAPS AS MANY AS 30,000 CIVILIANS LAST JANUARY.

>> EXACTLY.

>> SO THAT IS DEFINITELY NOT SOMEONE WHO IS QUOTE-UNQUOTE MODERATE.

BUT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN, HE WAS THOUGHT TO BE A LITTLE MORE PRAGMATIC, NOT NECESSARILY INTERNALLY BUT IN HIS WILLINGNESS TO TALK TO THE UNITED STATES OR TALK TO GULF COUNTRIES.

AND I --IT SEEMS THERE'S NOW REPORTS --I DON'T KNOW IT'S YET CONFIRMED HE'S BEING REPLACED BY A GUY CALLED SAYED.

HE'S MUCH LESS COMPETENT THAN LARIJANI.

SO I THINK THAT LARIJANI, THE MATTER OF FACT OF HIS KILLING IS THAT IT IS A REGIME NOW WHICH HAS LOST ITS MOST EXPERIENCED HANDS, BUT IT'S NOT MODERATING AS A RESULT.

IF IT WAS 9 OUT OF 10 BRUTAL AND IDEOLOGICAL, IT'S SIMPLY GOING TO 10 OUT OF 10.

>> IT APPEARS THAT THE GOAL HERE SPECIFICALLY BY THE ISRAELIS IN TARGETING THESE TOP OFFICIALS IS TO FRACTURE THE REGIME'S INTERNAL SECURITY.

DOES DECAPITATING THE BESIEGED CENTRAL COMMAND DO JUST THAT?

>> IT'S TOO SOON TO SAY, BIANNA.

I THINK THAT IN CONTRAST TO LARIJANI, THE HEAD OF THE BESIEGED THAT WAS TODAY KILLED, SEEMED TO ME MORE OF AN APRATCHIC, NOT REALLY A GREAT MIND CAPABLE OF LEADERSHIP BUT SOMEONE WHO IS SIMPLY A THUG.

AND THUGS ARE REPLACEABLE IN THAT SYSTEM.

BUT AS I SAID, THEY HAVE VERY FEW MEN AT THAT TOP LEVEL WHO HAVE BOTH DECADES OF DOMESTIC EXPERIENCE AND INTERNATIONAL EXPERIENCE GIVEN HOW ISOLATED THIS REGIME HAS BEEN.

>> THERE HAD BEEN REPORTING THAT INTERNALLY THERE WAS A DEBATE, INTENTION BETWEEN THE IRGC AND SOME OF THE MORE -- WE'LL PUT THEM IN QUOTES --PRAGMATIC AND MODERATE LEADERS AND FIGURES IN THIS REGIME ABOUT WHO SHOULD REPLACE THE SUPREME LEADER AND THAT MOSHTABA HAD NOT BEEN THE PREFERRED CHOICE APPARENTLY NOT EVEN BY HIS FATHER BUT BY LARIJANI AS WELL.

AND YET WE KNOW HE HAD BECOME HIS ADVISOR IN THESE SHORT FEW DAYS SINCE SHTABA HAD BEEN APPOINTED BEFORE LARIJANI WAS KILLED.

IF IT'S NOT MOGSTABA WHO IS APPOINTED WHO I BELIEVE IS IN A BUNKER AS WELL?

>> I DO BELIEVE IT'S THE PERSON WHO IS THE CURRENT SPEAKER OF PARLIAMENT.

AND ONE THING THE AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, YOU KNOW, HE FIRMLY BELIEVED IN THE PRINCIPLES OF 1979.

WE CALL THEM HARD LINERS.

THEY CALL THEMSELVES PRINCIPALESTS BECAUSE THEY SAY THEY'RE LOYAL TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE REVOLUTION, AND REALLY THERE'S ONLY A FEW PRINCIPALS LEFT OF THE 1979 REVOLUTION.

DEATH TO AMERICA.

DEATH TO ISRAEL.

AND THEY STILL BELIEVE IN THE ISLAMICNESS OF THE REGIME.

THEY'RE NOT PREPARED TO DILUTE THAT.

AND FOR THEM EVEN THE MANDATORY HIJOB, WHICH INCREASINGLY FEW WOMEN ADHERE TO IRAN, THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO GIVE THAT UP BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT IS THE FLAG OF THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION.

AND SO AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI'S LONG-TIME VIEW IS WHEN YOU'RE UNDER PRESSURE YOU CAN'T ABANDON YOUR PRINCIPLES.

AND HE BELIEVES THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION WAS HASTENED BY GORBACHEV'S ATTEMPTS TO REFORM IT.

SO I SEE THIS AS A REGIME AS OF RIGHT NOW IT'S NOT PREPARED TO MEANINGFULLY CHANGE ITS IDENTITY AND COMPROMISE.

AND FOR THAT REASON, BIANNA, I DON'T REALLY THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE A RESOLUTION IN THIS CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN OR THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN ANY TIME SOON.

>> YEAH, THE PRESIDENT JUST MOMENTS AGO SAYING HE THINKS THIS IS GOING TO WRAP UP VERY QUICKLY.

OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF PRESSURE ON HIM TO DO JUST THAT, SPECIFICALLY ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND THE IMPACT THAT CLOSURE IS HAVING ON OIL AND GAS PRICES.

AS I DO EVERY WEEK IN READING YOUR REPORTING AND YOUR PIECES, THE LAST PIECE YOU WROTE IN "THE ATLANTIC" INSISTS THAT INSTEAD OF A PRAGMATIST THIS WAR HAS SPAWNED WHAT YOU SAY IS AN IRANIAN KIM JONG-UN IN MOSHTUBA.

YOU SAY HE LACKS HIS FATHER'S CREDIBILITY AND RELIES ON ENFORCERS SPECIFICALLY LIKE HUSSEIN TAYEY.

>> AS I QUOTED A PERSON WHO HAD BEEN A PRISONER IN ISLAMIC REPUBLIC FOR EIGHT YEARS, HE REFERRED TO HIM AS ONE OF THE MOST EVIL MEN IN THE REPUBLIC, THE WORST OF THE WORST.

SOMEONE IMPLICATED IN MASS IMPRISONMENTS, HOSTAGE TAKINGS, TORTURES FOR DECADES.

AND HE WAS SOMEONE WHO WAS HEAD OF REVOLUTIONARY GUARD INTELLIGENCE IN THE PAST WHO HAD EVEN BEEN ACTUALLY EXPUNGED FROM THE REGIME SECURITY NETWORKS BECAUSE EVEN IN THE CONTEXT OF A BRUTAL REGIME HE WAS THOUGHT TO BE TOO RADICAL.

AND SO THESE ARE THE TYPES OF PEOPLE AROUND HIM GIVEN HIS LACK OF LEGITIMACY, HIS LACK OF POPULARITY.

HE HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO REALLY TRY AND STAY IN POWER THROUGH BRUTALITY, AND I'M SKEPTICAL, BIANNA, THAT HE'S GOING TO BE SOMEONE THAT WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT FOR MANY YEARS COME.

THE ISRAELI OBVIOUSLY ARE TRYING TO ASSASSINATE HIM, BUT HE OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT SEEM SOMEONE WHO IS WELL-PLACED FOR THIS ROLE.

HE'S NEVER REALLY FORMALLY HELD A PUBLIC POSITION.

HE'S NEVER GIVEN A FORMAL PUBLIC SPEECH.

AND WE KNOW NOW HE'S INJURED.

HE'S IN HIDING.

HIS ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIS UNDERLINGS HAS BEEN TOTALLY PENETRATED, AND HE'S REALLY INHERITING AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION.

A POPULATION WHICH PROFOUNDLY OPPOSES HIS REGIME AND FIGHTING A WAR AGAINST AMERICA AND ISRAEL.

>> THERE IS IS PIECE I'M SURE YOU'VE SEEN THAT HAS BEEN WIDELY CIRCULATED.

I BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT HAS EVEN POSTED IT AS WELL.

IT'S AN AL JAZEERA PIECE ARGUING OPPOSITION MASSIVE FURY IS ACTUALLY A MASSIVE STRATEGIC SKESZ.

THE AUTHOR GOES ONTO SAY LOOKING AT THE DATA THE LAUNCHES ARE DOWN 90%, THE PROXY IS FRAGMENTING, I'M GOING TO QUOTE FROM THE PIECE.

WHAT THE CRITICS ARE UNDERSTANDING AS A WAR IS BETTER UNDERSTOOD AS AN ARCHITECTURE WHOSE AUTHORIZING CENTER HAS BEEN SHATTERED.

NOW, HE'S SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE MILITARY STRATEGY HERE AND LESS THE POLITICAL, DUT DO YOU AGREE WITH HIS ASSESSMENT THAT IRAN'S ABILITY TO PROJECT REGIONAL POWER AT THIS POINT HAS BEEN GREATLY DIMINISHED?

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, BIANNA, AND I THINK IT WAS EVEN TRUE BEFORE THIS WAR HAD STARTED THAT IRAN'S REGIONAL PROXIES HAD BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY DIMINISHED BY ISRAELI HARD POWERS SINCE OCTOBER 7, 2023.

FOR ME THERE'S KIND OF THREE IMPORTANT FIGURES TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO.

ONE IS THE PRICE OF OIL BECAUSE AN IMPORTANT PART OF IRAN'S STRATEGY IS TO CONTINUE TO SPIKE THE PRICE OF OIL.

THE SECOND NUMBER TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO IS DOMESTIC PUBLIC OPINION IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF OIL PRICES AND DOMESTIC PUBLIC OPINION ARE CONTINUING TO TREND UPWARD, I THINK THE REGIME WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT.

BUT THE THIRD NUMBER, WHICH YOU ALLUDED TO IN THE AL JAZEERA PIECE IS THE NUMBER OF PROJECTILES IRAN HAS LEFT.

IT'S MISSILES AND DRONES.

WE KNOW THEY PROBABLY DON'T HAVE IN THE TENS OF THOUSANDS LEFT, BUT THEY PROBABLY STILL HAVE IN THE THOUSANDS LEFT, AND THEY HAVE TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT HOW THEY USE THOSE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN --I DON'T THINK THEY CAN CONTINUE TO FIGHT AT THIS PACE FOR THE NEXT SIX MONTHS.

>> RIGHT, BECAUSE THEN IF NAY USE THEM, ULTIMATELY, THE LAUNCHING PADS FROM WHICH THEY WERE LAUNCHED WILL BE THE PRIMARY TARGET, AND WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE RUNNING OUT QUICKLY OF LAUNCHERS, WHICH HAVE BEEN A PRIME TARGET OF BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL.

LAST QUESTION.

YOU SAID SOMETHING THAT I FOUND VERY POIGNANT LAST WEEK ON OUR AIR, AND YOU SAID THAT THE ALLY IRAN IS TRYING TO SUMMON IS THE AMERICAN PUBLIC RIGHT NOW.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEAN, AND COULD YOU ADD TO THAT POTENTIALLY OUR NATO ALLIES AND EUROPEAN ALLIES, WHICH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS NOW PUBLICLY RIDICULED AND CRITICIZED FOR NOT GETTING INVOLVED IN THIS WAR?

>> SO, BIANNA, IN THE 47-YEAR U. S.

-IRAN COLD WAR IRAN HAS OFTEN RELIED ON DOMESTIC PUBLIC POIP IN AMERICA TO RESTRAIN THE AMBITIONS OF AMERICAN PRESIDENTS.

PERHAPS THE BEST RECENT EXAMPLE OF THAT BEFORE THIS WAR WAS THE 2003 U. S. INVASION OF IRAQ UNDER GEORGE BUSH.

AND AT THAT TIME THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK THAT AFTER DEPOSING OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN IRAQ, THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY OF MOVING THE WAR EASTWARD TO IRAN.

AND WHAT IRAN DID AFTER THE INVASION OF IRAQ WAS TO TURN IRAQ INTO AN INFERNO.

ALL THEY WANTED TO DO WAS -- WAS SABOTAGE THE IRAQ WAR, TO HAMSTRING GEORGE W. BUSH'S MANDATE FOR TAKING THAT WAR TO IRAN.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THEY SUCCEEDED IN THAT REALM.

AND NOW THEY'RE PAYING VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO PUBLIC OPINION IN THE U. S. INCLUDING WITHIN THE MAGA MOVEMENT, WHICH THEY BELIEVE IS OPPOSED TO THIS WAR.

ON STATE TELEVISION THEY PUT ON VOICES LIKE RECORDINGS OF PEOPLE LIKE TUCKER CARLSON, SO THEY VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON DOMESTIC PUBLIC OPINION.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT ULTIMATELY I THINK IS GOING TO BE THE MOST DIFFICULT QUESTION FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

CAN HE CONTINUE TO SHOW RESOLVE DESPITE THE FACT AN INCREASING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS HAVE REAL CONCERNS ABOUT THIS CONFLICT?

>> KARIM SADJADPOUR, ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

>> WE TURN NOW TO AFGHANISTAN, WHERE ANOTHER CONFLICT IS SPIRALING.

TODAY KABUL IS REELING FROM A DEADLY STRIKE ON A HOSPITAL WHERE AFGHANISTAN SAYS AT LEAST 408 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN PAKISTANI AIR STRIKE.

ISLAMABAD DENIES THAT.

BUT IT COMES AS THE TWO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN EXCHANGING FIRE FOR WEEKS WITH PAKISTAN CLAIMING THE TALIBAN ARE SPONSORING ATTACKS.

AND MEANTIME THE WAR IS RAGING ON THE GROUND IN AFGHANISTAN AND THAT IS THE WAR ON WOMEN AND GIRLS.

THE TALIBAN IS NOW DECLARING MEN MAY BEAT THEIR WIVES AS LONG AS THEY DON'T BREAK BONES.

IT'S HORRIFIC.

IT IS JUST THE LATEST EDICT IN A STRING OF ARCHAIC ROLLBACKS SINCE THEY TOOK OVER NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO.

MY NEXT GUEST CALLS THIS GENDER APARTHEID, AND SHE IS DEMANDING FOR WORLD LEADERS TO RECOGNIZE IT AS SUCH.

IN A SPEECH AT THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT ON MONDAY FORMER AFGHAN LAWMAKER AND PEACE NEGOTIATOR FAWZIA KOOFI CALLED ON THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO PUT MORE PRESSURE ON THE TALIBAN REGIME, AND SHE JOINS ME NOW LIVE FROM BRUSSELS.

FAWZIA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

LET ME START WITH THIS STRIKE ON AN AFGHAN DRUG REHAB CENTER, WHICH WE SAID KILLED AT LEAST 408 PEOPLE.

THE TALIBAN IS THREATENING TO RETALIATE OVER ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY ARE HARBORING TERRORISTS.

WHERE IS THIS ESCALATION HEADED IN YOUR VIEW?

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA, FOR HAVING ME.

FOR FIVE DECADE THE CIVILIANS, THE PEOPLE OF AFGHANISTAN, THE DEFENSELESS HAVE BEEN DRAGGED INTO THE WARS THAT IT HAS NEVER BEEN THEIR WAR.

AND AS A RESULT CIVILIAN CASUALTY ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

ONE OF THE THINGS THE TALIBAN WERE PROUD AND THEY WERE CLAIMING WAS THAT THE SECURITY THEY WERE CLAIMING --THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH.

HOWEVER, WE SEE RECENTLY THAT THEY WERE IN CONFLICT WITH THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES INTERNALLY AS WELL, AND ALSO LIKE THE PAKISTAN STRIKE, YOU KNOW, THE CIVILIANS MUST BE PROTECTED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

THE TALIBAN CLAIMED THAT THEY ARE COUNTERING OTHER MILITARY EXTREMISM INCLUDING THE TTP.

PAKISTAN IS CLAIMING THAT THEY'RE USING AFGHANISTAN SOIL.

I THINK THIS IS VALID CONCERN THAT, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD MUST HOLD THE TALIBAN ACCOUNTABLE.

WE BELIEVE, YOU KNOW, THE CIVILIAN CANNOT CONTINUE TO PAY THE PRICE FOR THE CARELESS AND RECKLESS TALIBAN ACT.

WHEN THEY WERE FIGHTING WITH THE REPUBLIC THEY WERE KILLING PEOPLE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

NOW THEY'RE DRAGGING PEOPLE INTO A WAR WHICH IS NOT OUR WAR.

IT'S NOT THE WAR OF OUR PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT OVER ANY VALUE THAT WE PUT OURSELVES AROUND THAT.

IT'S OVER SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T WANT THAT IN OUR LAND.

IF IT'S TTP OR ISIS, WE DON'T WANT THEM IN OUR LAND BECAUSE WE ARE PAYING THE PRICE, AND SO I THINK IT IS A WAR THAT IS GOING TO ESCALATE FURTHER.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THE --THE CIVILIANS WILL BE THE FURTHER VICTIM OF THIS.

SO, THEREFORE, I THINK PAKISTAN MUST BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO PLAY WITH THE PUBLIC SENTIMENT WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR ATTACKS.

THERE SHOULD BE AN ACCOUNTABILITY TO THIS WAR, AND THE CULTURE OF ACCOUNTABILITY SHOULD BE IN A WAY THAT CIVILIANS MUST BE PROTECTED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING SUPPRESSED BY THE TALIBAN.

AND AS YOU SAID, THERE IS ALREADY ANOTHER WAR THAT IS LAUNCHED IN AFGHANISTAN, AND THAT'S THE WAR AGAINST CIVILIANS, AGAINST PEOPLE, AGAINST THE ORDINARY PEOPLE, AND MORE THAN THAT AGAINST THE WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> SO WITH THIS AS A BACKDROP OF PERHAPS THE TWO COUNTRIES BEING ON THE BRINK OF AN ALL-OUT WAR AS WE NOTED FOR OUR VIEWERS IN THE INTRODUCTION, YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW AFGHAN WOMEN WHO ACTUALLY NEGOTIATED WITH THE TALIBAN DIRECTLY.

YOU SURVIVED AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT, AND YOU ADDRESSED THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT.

AS GLOBAL ATTENTION ON AFGHANISTAN FADES AND HAS FADED, I WOULD ARGUE, FOR A NUMBER OF MONTHS IF NOT YEARS NOW, WHAT IS THE MOST URGENT MESSAGE YOU WANT TO SEND TO THE WORLD ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY?

>> I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT AFGHANISTAN IS LIKE AN OPEN WOUND, AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE WORLD IS BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, AT ITS WORST SHAPE TO BE ALIVE NOW, AFGHANISTAN MUST NOT BE, YOU KNOW, DROPPED OUT OF THE WORLD AGENDA BECAUSE, AS I SAID BEFORE, NOT ONLY IN TERMS OF MILLFANT EXTREMISM GROUPS THAT ARE USING AFGHANISTAN.

BUT ALSO TALIBAN WILL USE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO FURTHER SUPPRESS WOMEN.

AS, YOU KNOW, THEY ENTERED THIS WAR WITH PAKISTAN, THE ISSUE ON THE 4th OF JANUARY, YET ANOTHER EDICT WHICH IS CALLED THE -- PROCEDURE WHICH TARGETS SUPPRESSED WOMEN AND LITERALLY DIVIDE SOCIETY INTO FOUR CATEGORIES.

WOMEN ARE AMONG THE LOWEST CATEGORY GIVING MEN IN THE FAMILY THE POWER TO DO THE PUNISHMENT INSTEAD OF COURT.

AND THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE A WOMAN ACCESS TO COURT AND OFFICIAL JUSTICE SYSTEM SIGNIFICANTLY DECLINES BECAUSE THE PROTECTION MECHANISMS THAT WERE THERE TO PROTECT THE LAW AND VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN WE TABLED IN THE PARLIAMENT, THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS THAT WAS THERE TO PROTECT WOMEN AND OTHER SOCIETY ORGANIZATION, EVEN MEDIA --INDEPENDENT MEDIA IS NOT THERE TO REPORT ABOUT THIS, SO WOMEN ARE LEFT WITH NO PROTECTION MEANS.

AND YET THE MEN OF THE FAMILY ARE GIVEN THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PUNISH THE WOMAN.

IN THE ARTICLES, AS YOU SAY, IT ACTUALLY LEGALIZES THE MATE --LEGALIZES IF YOUR MASTER OR YOUR SUPERVISOR OR SOMEONE WHO IS OWNING A HUMAN BEING, YOU KNOW, HAS THE POWER TO PUNISH ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.

BASICALLY LEGALIZING AND FORMALIZING SLAVERY.

IN ANOTHER ARTICLE IT SAYS IF A WOMAN HAS BEEN BEATEN TO A POINT WHERE HER BONES ARE FRACTURED OR SHE FINDS BRUISES, SHE CAN GO TO THE COURT.

AND ONLY IF SHE CAN PROVE THAT, THE HUSBAND WILL BE SENTENCED TO 15 DAYS.

WHILE IF AN ANIMAL IS HURT, THE PERPETRATOR COULD BE SENTENCED TO FIVE MONTHS OF IMPRISONMENT.

SO AN ANIMAL HAS MORE RIGHTS THAN A WOMAN -- IN A SESSION I WAS IN IN THE UNITED NATIONS.

THIS IS DISGUSTING.

TALIBAN FEEL EMBOLDENED.

THEY NEED TO BE PRESSURIZED BECAUSE THEY PROMISED DURING THE PEACE TALKS WHEN I WAS PART OF IT THAT THEY WOULD RESPECT WOMEN RIGHTS, THAT THEY WOULD ALLOW WOMEN TO GO TO SCHOOL, AND THEY PROSTRATED AS TALIBAN 2.

0 BY SOME THAT NEGOTIATED WITH THEM.

THIS CULTURE OF IMPUNITY SHOULD END BEFORE IT REACHES EVERY DOORS IN YOUR OWN BORDERS.

>> YOU JUST SUMMARIZED IN GREAT DETAIL AND VERY EFFECTIVELY WHAT A TOP U. N. OFFICIAL RECENTLY CALLED AFGHANISTAN, AND THAT IS A GRAVEYARD FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING DIRECTLY FROM WOMEN AND CHILDREN THERE AND GIRLS WHO ARE SURVIVING NOW OR TRYING TO SURVIVE UNDER SUCH REPRESSIVE RULES?

>> YOU CAN IMAGINE IF A HUMAN BEING IS NOT WORKING, SHE OR EVEN HE --BECAUSE IT'S NOT ONLY THE WOMAN WHO EXPERIENCES THIS CHAOS AND SUPPRESSIVE MEASURES, BUT THE MEN AS WELL IN THE SOCIETY.

THEY DON'T HAVE JOBS.

THE ECONOMY IS BASICALLY DECLINING.

THERE IS 5 BILLION DEFICIT ACCORDING TO SOME REPORTS, ACCORDING TO OUR ECONOMY BECAUSE WOMEN ARE NOT IN THE JOB MARKET.

THEY ARE BEING KILLED BY THE WAR THAT THEY HAVE NOT CHOSEN.

IT'S NOT THEIR WAR, AND THEN THEY ARE BEING SUPPRESSED.

21st OF MARCH IN JUST A FEW DAYS WILL BE THE BEGINNING OF A NEW EDUCATION YEAR IN AFGHANISTAN, AND FIVE YEARS SINCE OUR GIRLS HAVE NOT BEEN TO OFFICIAL SCHOOL.

UNIVERSITIES ARE CLOSED.

A HUGE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS ENAFGHANISTAN, I WOULD SAY.

NOT ONLY WOMEN ARE SUFFERING FROM THAT MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS BUT MEN AS WELL.

AND PEOPLE ARE JUST, THEY'RE WAITING FOR A CHANGE.

THEY ARE EXPECTING THE CHANGE MIGHT COME NOW OR NEXT DAY.

AND AFGHANISTAN IS A COUNTRY OF SO MUCH UNPREDICTABILITY, SO WE MUST ACTUALLY PREPARE OURSELVES FOR THAT CHANGE.

WE SHOULD NOT THINK THE TALIBAN WILL BE THERE -- SOMEONE WHO HAS LEFT IN AFGHANISTAN SOCIAL PERSPECTIVE I KNOW THE SITUATION IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

THE TALIBAN WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN IT BY SUPPRESSING HALF OF THE SOCIETY AND ALSO MAKING IT HARD FOR THE OTHER HALF, WHICH ARE THE MEN.

SO THIS IS SITUATION THAT WE MUST ALL WORK BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE AND AFGHANISTAN BECOMES ANOTHER INSECURITY HUB FOR THE GLOBAL COMMUNITY.

>> AND FINAL QUESTION.

THE RECENT MOVE BY MARCO RUBIO TO DESIGNATE THE TALIBAN AS A STATE SPONSOR OF WRONGFUL DETENTION, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT YOU SUPPORT THAT DECLARATION.

ARE YOU NOW LOOKING FOR THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE MORE ACTIONS PERHAPS IN THE FORM OF SANCTIONS?

BUT THEN WITH THAT COMES CONCERN ABOUT WHAT THAT MEANS FOR THOSE CIVILIANS ON THE GROUND.

AND I MEAN MORE -- ADDITIONAL SANCTIONS.

>> I READ THE STATEMENT BY STATE DEPARTMENT ON AFGHANISTAN BEING AS A STATE THAT IS FAVORING THE HOSTILITY AND HOSTAGES.

I THINK WE SHOULD REALLY USE THE TERM CAREFULLY BECAUSE IT'S NOT AFGHANISTAN.

>> YEAH, IT'S THE TALIBAN.

>> MY COUNTRY'S NAME SHOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH ANY WRONGDOINGS OF THE TALIBAN.

IT'S THE TALIBAN.

AND, OF COURSE, ANY MEASURES, THE AMERICANS DID IT -- THE STATE DEPARTMENT DID IT FOR THEIR OWN INTEREST BECAUSE THEIR CITIZENS ARE BEING ABDUCTED BY THE TALIBAN.

WHAT ABOUT 18 MILLION WOMEN WHO ARE ACTUALLY -- >> YEAH.

>> WHOSE DREAMS ARE ABDUCTED, WHOSE ASPIRATIONS FOR A BETTER LIFE IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM?

WE MUST HELP TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE AS WELL.

>> YEAH, THAT IS WHERE THE FOCUS SHOULD BE.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT TO POINT THAT OUT.

FAWZIA KOOFI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO CUBA WHERE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE WITHOUT POWER AFTER THE ISLAND'S ELECTRICITY GRID COLLAPSED ON MONDAY.

TAKE A LOOK AT CUBANS, AS THEY GATHERED IN THE STREETS TO PROTEST THE SITUATION.

CUBA HAS BEEN PLAGUED BY BLACKOUTS FOR YEARS, BUT THIS NATIONWIDE OUTAGE COMES AFTER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION EFFECTIVELY CUT OFF THE ISLAND'S ACCESS TO FOREIGN OIL.

CUBA RELIES ON THAT OIL TO GENERATE ELECTRICITY.

MEANWHILE, HERE'S PRESIDENT TRUMP SPEAKING ON MONDAY.

>> I DO BELIEVE I'LL BE THE HONOR OF --HAVING THE HONOR OF TAKING CUBA.

THAT'S A BIG HONOR.

>> TAKING CUBA?

>> TAKING CUBA IN SOME FORM, YEAH.

TAKING CUBA.

I MEAN, WHETHER I FREE IT, TAKE IT, I THINK I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT WITH IT.

THEY'RE A VERY WEAKENED NATION RIGHT NOW.

THEY WERE FOR A LONG TIME.

VERY VIOLENT --VERY VIOLENT LEADERS.

>> LET'S BRING IN CORRESPONDENT PATRICK OPPMANN WHO'S IN HAVANA WITH MORE.

PATRICK, FIRST THE REACTION OF THOSE COMMENTS BY THE PRESIDENT HE'S BE ABLE TO TAKE CUBA.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HOW ARE THOSE CUBANS RESPONDING AND REACTING TO HEIGHTENED SANCTIONS AND THE FACT THAT THEY NOW DON'T HAVE ELECTRICITY?

>> YOU KNOW, POWER IS SLOW COMING BACK ON IN POCKETS OF THIS COUNTRY.

BUT I THINK FOR THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE THEY ARE NOW --YOU KNOW, NOW MORE THAN ONE DAY INTO THE LARGEST POWER OUTAGE WE HAVE SEEN THIS YEAR.

THE FIRST ISLAND-WIDE POWER OUTAGE THAT HAS TAKEN PLACE SINCE THE OIL EMBARGO WAS IMPLEMENTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THAT, OF COURSE, IS PUTTING STRESS ON AN ALREADY OVERWORKED, ALREADY VERY, VERY OLD AND UNDERFUNDED NATIONAL POWER SYSTEM.

AND SO THE LONGER THIS GOES ON, THE WORSE IT GETS.

BUT WE SHOULD POINT OUT EVEN BEFORE THIS LATEST NATIONWIDE POWER OUTAGE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WERE GETTING -- MY NEIGHBORHOOD MAYBE FOUR HOURS OF POWER EVERY DAY, SO IT'S JUST BARELY ENOUGH TO GET BY, BUT IT'S REALLY NOT ANYTHING APPROACHING WHAT YOU CONSIDER A NORMAL LIFE.

AND SO PEOPLE ARE ON THE EDGE OF SEEING PEOPLE GOING AND PROTESTING.

ACTUALLY, IN ONE INSTANCE ATTACKING THE HEADQUARTERS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY.

PER DONALD TRUMP'S COMMENTS THAT'S THE KIND OF COMMENTS THAT LED --TO FIGHT HIS REVOLUTION ACCORDING TO HIM AND HIS SUPPORTERS OVER THE YEARS.

IT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT MAKES PEOPLE'S BLOOD, MANY OF THEM RUN COLD OVER HERE.

THE UNITED STATES WOULD ESSENTIALLY TAKE OVER THIS ISLAND.

CUBANS ARE VERY NATIONALIST, VERY PROUD.

INCREASINGLY PEOPLE SAY THEY JUST WANT TO GET THIS ECONOMIC CRISIS OVER WITH NO MATTER HOW THAT WOULD OCCUR.

PEOPLE ARE AT THE END OF THE ROPE.

PEOPLE ARE AFFECTED BY THE LAST MONTHS OF CONSTANT POWER OUTAGES AND JUST THE INCREASING DIFFICULTY OF LIFE ON THIS ISLAND.

BUT OF COURSE MANY PEOPLE AREN'T EVEN AWARE OF THE COMMENTS BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY DON'T HAVE POWER OR INTERNET AT THE MOMENT.

>> AND HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING TO REPORTS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS EFFECTIVELY LOOKING FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY, MIGUEL DIAZ CANAL TO STEP DOWN?

HE'S NOT THE ONE WHO BELIEVES WIELDS THE MOST POWER, BUT THIS WOULD BE A BIG SILL BALMIC OR LARGELY SYMBOLIC MOVE FOR THE MOST PART.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE HEARING?

>> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING.

HE'S BEEN PRESIDENT OF CUBA SINCE THE REVOLUTION --THE FIRST LEADER WHOSE NAME IS NOT CASTRO.

YOU'RE RIGHT CASTRO SINCE HE RETIRED IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY ON THIS ISLAND, 94 YEARS OLD.

THERE ARE NO SIGNS FROM FIDEL CASTRO FOR MANY, MANY YEARS AND I'VE SEEN MANY OF HIS SPEECHES AND COVERED HIS ENTIRE PRESIDENCY HERE.

AND THERE ARE REALLY NO SIGNS HE WOULD EVER GIVE INTO U. S. PRESSURE.

OF COURSE TIMES ARE JUST SO DIFFERENT HERE.

LIFE IS GETTING SO MUCH HARDER, AND UNLIKE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS THAT TIGHTEN THE SCREWS ECONOMICALLY ON CUBA, NOW YOU HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION TALKING ABOUT POSSIBLY USING MILITARY ACTION OR WHATEVER COURSE OF MEASURE THEY NEED TO.

CERTAINLY JUST AS OIL BLOCK AIDS.

IT'S AN ISLAND ON FUMES.

HE WAS HAN PICKED BY FIDEL CASTRO.

HE CERTAINLY COULD BE UN-HAND PICKED.

BUT THE CONCERN BECOMES IF YOU ESSENTIALLY SPLIT THE GOVERNMENT AND PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THE LOYALTY THEY'VE GIVEN TO THE REVOLUTION, TO THE CASTROS, TO THE GOVERNMENT OVER THE YEARS IS NOT BEING RETURNED TO THEM, IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE THAT THEY WOULD ESSENTIALLY GO INTO --THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT THIS KIND OF U. S. DEMAND OF WHO THE PRESIDENT OF THIS ISLAND IS.

BUT WE ARE, OF COURSE, AT THE END OF THE ROPE WHEN IT COMES TO THE ECONOMY HERE.

>> ALL RIGHT, PATRICK OPPMANN REPORTING LIVE FROM CUBA FOR US.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> NOW, THE U. S. IS REPORTEDLY DEPLOYING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TO HELP FIGHT ITS WAR WITH IRAN, AS THE PENTAGON PUSHES FOR LESS HUMAN OVERSIGHT OVER THE USE OF THIS TECHNOLOGY, OUR NEXT GUEST IS SOUNDING THE ALARM AROUND THE SAFETY AND RELIABILITY OF THESE TOOLS PARTICULARLY IN FACILITATING WHAT IS CALLED A, QUOTE, KILL CHAIN.

HEIDY KHLAAF IS THE CHIEF A. I. SCIENTIST AT THE A. I. NOW INSTITUTE, AND SHE SHARES HER CONCERNS ON THE GROWING USE OF A. I. SYSTEMS IN THE MILITARY WITH HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE SOMEONE WHO HELPED PIONEER THE FIELD OF A. I. SAFETY.

AND AS AN ENGINEER WHAT DOES IT MEAN AND WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE IN PRACTICE?

>> SO A. I. SAFETY HAS A LOT OF DIFFERENT DEFINITIONS TO DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE, BUT I COME FROM THE TRADITIONAL SAFETY ENGINEERING DISCIPLINE, WHICH IS ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT SYSTEMS ARE SAFETY CRITICAL, SO THINGS LIKE AIRPLANES, NUCLEAR PLANTS, OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

IF IT FAILS, HUMAN LIVES ARE AT RISK HERE.

AND THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TYPE OF DISCIPLINE THAN WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IN TERMS OF A. I. SAFETY.

AND OVER THE YEARS A. I. SAFETY HAS REALLY BECOME ABOUT, YOU KNOW, EXISTENTIAL RISKS OR THIS FEAR THAT THEY WILL -- THESE A. I. MODELS WILL BECOME SUPER INTELLIGENT, AND, YOU KNOW, THEN BECOME A RISK TO SOCIETY AT LARGE.

BUT THE DIFFERENCES HERE -- THE RISKS THAT THESE A. I. COMPANIES TALK ABOUT WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT A. I. SAFETY ARE REALLY HYPOTHETICAL.

THEY'RE NOT CONCERNED WITH EVERYDAY RISKS THAT A. I. MODELS CAN POSE TO HUMAN LIVE.

THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT FROM SAFETY ENGINEERING, WHICH IS MY DISCIPLINE WHICH THINKS ABOUT THE HUMAN LIVES AFFECTED FROM THAT COULD OCCUR FROM OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

I OFTEN VIEW AS A. I. SAFETY AS SORT OF SAFETY REVISIONISM, OR THAT TERM HAS BEEN CO- OPTED BECAUSE WE MOVED VERY FAR AWAY FROM TRYING TO MAKE SURE OUR SYSTEMS ARE ACCURATE AND RELIABLE TOWARDS THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO BUILD SOME SUPER INTELLIGENT BEING THAT'S GOING TO SOLVE ALL OF OUR WORLD PROBLEMS.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE ALWAYS FOCUS ON THE SCIENCE AND HOW THESE SYSTEMS ACTUALLY FAIL RATHER THAN HYPOTHETICAL SCI- FI SITUATIONS THAT ACTUALLY DON'T HELP US MAKE THESE SITUATIONS RELIABLE AT ALL.

>> THERE IS THIS LIFE THREATENING SCENARIO PEOPLE ARE GETTING FAMILIAR WITH, WHICH IS HOW IS A. I. BEING USED IN WARFARE.

HOW DO YOU SEE A. I. CONTRIBUTING TO THE WAY THAT MILITARIES ARE CARRYING OUT THEIR ACTIONS?

>> WHEN YOU'RE USING THINGS LIKE GENERATIVE A. I. OR LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS FOR WRITING AN E-MAIL, THESE MODELS GETTING SOMETHING WRONG IS VERY LOW RISK, RIGHT?

NO ONE DIES, NOTHING CHANGES.

BUT THEN WHEN YOU MOVE TO TRYING TO IMPLEMENT THEM IN SAFETY CRITICAL SYSTEMS LIKE IN DEFENSE, YOU'RE LITERALLY, YOU KNOW, DETERMINING THE LIVES OF PEOPLE, RIGHT?

THIS IS --THIS IS VERY MUCH HIGH STAKES.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE ACCURACY OF THESE SYSTEMS, THEY SHOULDN'T BE NEAR ANY SORT OF TARGETING AT ALL.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, MAVEN, WHICH IS CURRENTLY BEING USED BY THE U. S. IN IRAN HAS LOW ACCURACY RATES.

YOU KNOW, TWO YEARS AGO AN INVESTIGATION CAME OUT THAT SHOWED THEIR ACCURACY RATE IS AS LOW AS 30% IN SOME SITUATIONS.

AND OVERALL WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE AVERAGES OF THESE MODELS, THEIR ACCURACY RATE IS AS LOW AS 50%.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S REALLY NOT FAR FROM FLIPPING A COIN, IS IT, RIGHT?

THE SORT OF 50-50 RANDOM CHANCE.

AND I THINK THAT SHOULD MAKE US QUESTION WHY ARE THESE SYSTEMS EVEN NEAR TARGETING AT ALL IF THEY'RE THIS INACCURATE?

AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN THERE COULD BE OTHER USES OF A. I. WHERE THERE AREN'T LIFE OR DEATH CONSEQUENCES.

BUT IN THE CASE OF MILITARY, THAT VERY MUCH IS WHAT'S AT STAKE.

>> SO HELP US KIND OF EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCES IN HOW THE MILITARY USES IT.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW WE THINK OF THIS PHRASE OF AUTONOMOUS SORT OF KILLING MACHINES, AND WE'RE ASCRIBING THIS POWER TO A. I. AND WE'RE HAVING THIS KIND OF DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT COMPANIES SHOULD BE DOING THAT, BUT THERE'S, YOU KNOW, ANOTHER LAYER OF JUST, LIKE, INTELLIGENCE AND INTELLIGENCE GATHERING.

SO HOW'S A. I. INVOLVED IN THAT?

>> SO FIRST I WANT TO PREFACE WITH THE FACT THAT A. I. HAS BEEN USED IN THE MILITARY SINCE THE 1960s BUT IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT TYPE OF A. I. THAN WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY.

BACK THEN AND A FEW YEARS AGO THEY WERE USING PURPOSE BUILT A. I. MODEL, WHERE THEY WERE VERY TASK-TASK-TASK-SPECIFIC.

AND THEY WERE TRAINED ON SPECIFIC TASKS WITH SPECIFIC DATA FOR SOME MISSION.

THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY IN THE USE OF GENERATIVE A. I. OR LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL, WHERE THEY'RE BEING IMPLEMENTED IN WHAT WE CALL DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS, WHICH ARE TOOLS THAT BRING TOGETHER A LOT OF DATA LIKE SATELLITE IMAGES, SOCIAL MEDIA FEEDS, INTERCEPTED COMMUNICATIONS.

AND THAT MODEL THEN USES ALL THIS INFORMATION TO MAKE MILITARY RECOMMENDATIONS INCLUDING TARGETING RECOMMENDATIONS.

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY CONFUSED ABOUT THIS TYPE OF TERM BECAUSE WE'RE ALSO HEARING A LOT ABOUT AUTONOMOUS WEAPON SYSTEMS.

AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS AND AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS SYSTEMS IS THAT AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS SYSTEMS ARE ALLOWED TO SELECT AND ENGAGE WITH TARGETS WITHOUT OVERSIGHT FROM A HUMAN BEING VERSUS DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS THAT DO HAVE THE SO-CALLED OVERSIGHT, RIGHT, AND IT'S QUESTIONABLE HOW MUCH OVERSIGHT THERE REALLY IS.

THAT TEND TO PROVIDE A GAME- LIKE OR CHAT BOT INTERFACE THAT A MILITARY OPERATOR THEN USES TO APPROVE A. I. TARGET RECOMMENDATIONS.

BUT OVERALL A. I. IS BEING USED IN EVERY PART OF WHAT WE CALL THE KILL CHANGE SO THINGS LIKE INTELLIGENCE, SURVEILLANCE, AND NOW WE'RE LOOKING AT THE SELECTION AND THEN THE STRIKE OF THE TARGETS AS WELL.

>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TAKING SOMETHING THAT WASN'T DESIGNED FOR THE MILITARY, THE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, AND WE'RE KIND OF PUTTING THAT INTO THE MILITARY'S NEEDS.

HOW DO WE MEASURE HOW ACCURATE THOSE SYSTEMS ARE IN THE TYPE OF TASKS THAT WE'RE ASKING IN THE MIDDLE OF WAR?

>> I MEAN, THAT'S A VERY GOOD POINT.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE VISION MODELS, THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO DETECT, THEY ALREADY HAD LOW ENOUGH ACCURACY RATES BEFORE.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD THE AIR FORCE THAT HAD A TARGETING MODEL WHICH THEY THOUGHT HAD 90% ACCURACY AND IT ACTUALLY IN PRACTICE ONLY HAD 25% ACCURACY.

SO WE WERE ALREADY DEALING WITH THESE ISSUES LONG BEFORE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS WERE BEING IMPLEMENTED WITHIN SORT OF MILITARY DECISION MAKING.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS THE CASE IS HAS BEEN SHOWN BY A LOT OF RESEARCH THAT COMMERCIAL GENERAL MODELS ARE MUCH LESS ACCURATE THAN MILITARY PURPOSE BUILT MODELS, AND SO WE HAVE AN ISSUE WHERE WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TOWARDS MODELS THAT HAVE REDUCED ACCURACY IN TERMS OF MILITARY CONTEXT.

AND THEY ALSO HAVE SECURITY ISSUES, AND I THINK WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS ENOUGH.

BECAUSE THEY ARE BUILT ON A COMMERCIAL SUPPLY CHAIN, THE SUPPLY CHAIN IS NOT VETTED AS WE TYPICALLY WOULD SEE WITH A MILITARY SYSTEM, SO THERE'S ACTUALLY SECURITY ISSUES AS WELL.

IT'S NOT JUST A SAFETY ISSUE.

THEY CAN BUILD BACK DOORS INTO THESE MODELS.

WE HAVE SEEN OPERATIONS FROM RUSSIA AND CHINA THAT PUT OUT A LOT OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF, YOU KNOW, PROPAGANDA TO TRY TO SKEW THE OUTPUTS OF LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS.

AND ANTHROPIC THEMSELVES HAVE ADMITTED YOU ONLY NEED TO CHANGE ABOUT 250 DOCUMENTS OR DATA POINTS FOR A MODEL TO BE ABLE TO CHANGE ITS BEHAVIOR.

SO WE HAVE MULTIPLE ISSUES HERE.

AND SO IT'S VERY UNFORTUNATE THAT INSTEAD OF TRYING TO IMPROVE ON THESE TASK-SPECIFIC MODELS THAT WE HAD BEFORE, WHICH, AGAIN HAD THEIR OWN ACCURACY ISSUES, WE'RE MOVING TOWARDS SOMETHING THAT'S MUCH LESS DETERMINISTIC, MUCH LESS PREDICTABLE AND UNFORTUNATELY NOT ACCURATE EITHER.

>> THERE'S A U. S. MESSAGE FROM THE HEAD OF U. S. CENTCOM LAST WEEK, AND HE SAID PARTLY HUMANS WILL ALWAYS MAKE FINAL DECISIONS ON WHAT TO SHOOT AND WHAT NOT TO SHOOT AND WHEN TO SHOOT, BUT ADVANCED A. I. TOOLS CAN TURN PROCESSES THAT USED TO TAKE HOURS AND SOMETIMES EVEN DAYS INTO SECONDS.

SO I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HERE IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT THESE MODELS ARE INHERENTLY NOT AS ACCURATE OR RELIABLE AS WE THINK, AND IF THESE DECISIONS ARE MADE SO FAST EVEN WHEN A HUMAN GETS THAT INFORMATION IN FRONT OF THEM IS THERE SORT OF A BIAS WHERE I MIGHT SAY THIS IS PROBABLY GOOD?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S DEFINITELY A BIAS HERE, AND THAT'S WHY HUMAN IN THE LOOP IS TYPICALLY NOT A VERY MEANINGFUL SOLUTION.

IN OUR FIELD WE HAVE WHAT WE CALL AUTOMATION BIAS, WHICH IS THIS IDEA BASED ON DECADES OF RESEARCH, SHOWING THAT HUMANS OFTEN TRUST THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF ALGORITHMS WITHOUT CORROBORATING WITH OTHER SOURCES TO CHECK IF THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS WERE CORRECT OR NOT, EVEN IF THEY'RE REQUIRED TO BY LAW IN THE CASE OF, YOU KNOW, MILITARY DECISION MAKING.

AND THIS IS ESPECIALLY THE CASE IN MILITARY CONTEXT WHEN OPERATORS USUALLY ONLY HAVE A FEW MINUTES TO MAKE DETERMINATIONS.

WITH MAVEN THE MILITARY IS HOPING TO REACH THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN SELECT A MILITARY TARGET WITHIN A SINGLE HOUR AND THEY CLAIM AN EXCEL OF 20 PEOPLE CAN REPLACE OPERATIONS THAT HAD 2,000 PERSONNEL INSTEAD.

THIS CREATES THE VERY CONDITIONS WHERE AUTOMATION BIAS WOULD THRIVE ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE THINGS LIKE PALANTIR'S PLATFORM, MAVEN, THAT KIND OF SKEWED WHERE A. I. OUT PUT REALLY IS OR DOESN'T MAKE IT EASY FOR YOU TO TRACE OR VERIFY THAT DECISION.

IN A LOT OF WAYS A LOT OF THESE MODELS HAVE ENORMOUS SCALE SO THEY'RE BLACK BOXES.

SO WE'RE KIND OF AT THE POINT WHERE SOMETIMES YOU DO WONDER IF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS, AS I WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER OR AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS SYSTEMS, YOU KNOW, IS SUPERFICIAL IN PRACTICE.

BECAUSE IF REALLY THE OPERATORS ARE DEFAULTING TO THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT THE A. I. ALGORITHM IS MAKING, REALLY IT TO SHOWS THAT, YOU KNOW --THE HUMAN IN THE LOOP IS NOT THE SOLUTION HERE ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU PAIR IT WITH LACK OF RELIABILITY OF THESE SYSTEMS.

>> WHAT'S INTERESTING RIGHT NOW IS THAT THERE'S THIS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN ANTHROPIC AND THE PENTAGON.

AND THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT SEEMS TO BE AT LEAST PUBLICLY REDUCED TO THE IDEA THAT ANTHROPIC IS SAYING WE DON'T WANT THESE MODELS USED FOR AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS SYSTEMS.

WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THEY'RE ACCURATE ENOUGH, AND WE DON'T ALSO WANT THEM USED IN MASS SURVEILLANCE OF U. S. CITIZENS.

MY QUESTION IS ARE THEY RELIABLE ENOUGH FOR THE DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS THAT YOU'RE MENTIONING IN THIS SURVEILLANCE, IN THE INTELLIGENCE GATHERING IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> I MEAN, THAT'S A FANTASTIC POINT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU CONSIDER AUTOMATION BIAS WITH THEIR LACK OF ACCURACY AND THE CEO OF ANTHROPIC HIMSELF ADMITTING THESE SYSTEMS ARE NOT RELIABLE, THEN IT'S VERY MUCH THE CASE THAT IF THEY BELIEVE THEIR MODELS AREN'T RELIABLE ENOUGH FOR AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS SYSTEMS, THEY'RE ALSO NOT RELIABLE ENOUGH FOR DECISION SUPPORT SYSTEMS, AND WE SHOULD BE QUESTIONING ALTOGETHER WHETHER OR NOT THESE SYSTEMS CAN BE SUCCESSFULLY USED IN MILITARY SETTINGS ESPECIALLY TARGETING.

>> SO THERE WAS A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE MISTAKE ON FEBRUARY 28th WHEN A MISSILE HIT AN IRANIAN GIRL'S SCHOOL IN SOUTHERN IRAN.

IT KILLED MORE THAN 170 PEOPLE.

IN THE PRELIMINARY INVESTIGATIONS RIGHT NOW IT SHOWS THAT THE U. S. IS RESPONSIBLE, AND I WONDER IF THIS AN INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, OR WAS THIS AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE FAILURE, AND HOW WILL I KNOW?

>> WELL, THE LACK OF CLARITY SURROUNDING THE SITUATION OF WHETHER OR NOT A. I. WAS USED IN THE SCHOOL CASE ACTUALLY TOUCHES ON A VERY IMPORTANT POINT THAT SHOWS HOW A. I. MODELS MAKE IT REALLY EASY TO OBSCURE ACCOUNTABILITY BECAUSE THE USE OF THESE SYSTEMS MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO DISTINGUISH IF THESE VILLAIN ATTACKS WERE DELIBERATE OR INTELLIGENCE FAILURES OR DUE TO IT THE LACK OF A. I. ACCURACY AS, YOU SAID.

OR IT COULD BE A COMBINATION OF ALL THREE.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE A. I. COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO DETERMINE THIS INTELLIGENCE BASED ON THE DATA GIVEN AND THEN THAT INTELLIGENCE WAS THEN USED FOR TARGETING.

BUT THE BLACK BOX INACCURATE NATURE OF A. I. MAKES THAT REALLY DIFFICULT TO DETERMINE.

AND A RECENT INVESTIGATION ACTUALLY SHOWED THAT A STRIKE ON CIVILIAN IN IRAQ IN 2024 THE U. S. CENTRAL COMMAND ADMITTED TO NOT KNOWING WHETHER SOME STRIKES WERE, IN FACT, A. I. RECOMMENDATIONS OR NOT.

AND IF THE DEPARTMENT OF WAR IS DELIBERATELY NOT RECORDING WHEN A. I.

-BASED DECISIONS ARE BEING USED, THEN IT SHOWS THAT A. I. IS REALLY BEING USED TO MUDDY THE ACCOUNTABILITY HERE ESPECIALLY FOR DECISION MAKERS THEN CHAIN OF COMMAND.

>> WOW.

BECAUSE IF A HUMAN BEING WAS DIRECTLY FOUND RESPONSIBLE THEY INTENTIONALLY, THERE WOULD BE A CONSEQUENCE.

THERE WOULD BE SOMEBODY OR SOME CHAIN OF COMMAND TO HOLD ACCOUNTABLE.

BUT YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW ALL THE PEOPLE IN THAT CHAIN OF COMMAND COULD BE WELL-INTENTIONED, NOT INTENDING TO, OF COURSE, STRIKE A GIRL'S SCHOOL.

BUT SAY THIS IS THE INTELLIGENCE WE WERE PRESENTED, AND BASED ON THIS INTELLIGENCE THIS IS THE ACTION THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO TAKE.

>> EXACTLY.

AND I THINK THERE'S A LARGER QUESTION ABOUT THE INVOLVEMENT OF THESE COMPANIES AS WELL BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE TAKING MILITARY AND FINE TUNING THEIR MODELS TOWARDS THAT.

SO WHO'S ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE HERE?

IS IT THE PEOPLE WHO PROVIDED INTELLIGENCE DATA?

IS IT THE INTELLIGENCE DATA THAT COULD HAVE BEEN --THAT A. I. COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO ESSENTIALLY CREATE?

IS IT THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUNDS WHO THEN APPROVED A RECOMMENDATION BUT, FOR EXAMPLE, WEREN'T GIVEN ENOUGH TIME TO CHECK IF THAT CONDITION WAS, IN FACT, ACCURATE.

THIS IS REALLY THE CORE ISSUE WE HAVE WITH A. I. AND LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY, AND IT COULD VERY MUCH BE THE CASE IT WAS DELIBERATE, BUT WE STILL WOULDN'T KNOW THAT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S VERY CONCERNING WE HAVE THE U. S. CENTCOM ESSENTIALLY ADMITTING THEY'RE NOT RECORDING THAT, AND IT'S QUITE A TRIVIAL ENGINEERING FEATURE TO IMPLEMENT.

YOU KNOW, IF AN A. I. RECOMMENDATION WAS BEING MADE OR NOT, RIGHT?

THIS ISN'T A DIFFICULT ENGINEERING PROBLEM, SO I THINK IT SHOULD GIVE US PAUSE AND MAKE US QUESTION HOW ARE MILITARIES USING A. I. TO ALSO EVADE ACCOUNTABILITY, RIGHT?

AND EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO EVADE ACCOUNTABILITY, WHAT IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG?

WHO IS RESPONSIBLE HERE?

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE A LOT OF THE OPERATORS THEMSELVES NOT UNDERSTANDING THE FAILURES AND LACK OF ACCURACY OF THESE MODELS, I THINK THAT PUTS RESPONSIBILITY ON THEM THAT THEY'RE PROBABLY NOT PREPARED FOR.

>> I'VE GOT TO IMAGINE THAT PART OF THEIR PITCH TO THE DEPARTMENTS OF WAR IN ANY COUNTRY THAT THEY MIGHT BE WORKING IN WOULD BE, LISTEN, I CAN HELP SAVE LIVES.

I CAN HELP YOU PROSECUTE THIS WITHOUT PUTTING BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

I HAVE NOW INTELLIGENCE SYSTEMS THAT WILL HELP YOU TARGET, THAT WILL HELP YOU FIND EXACTLY THE RIGHT TARGETS THAT ONLY THE MILITARY KIND OF INSTALLATIONS, AND I CAN MINIMIZE CIVILIAN HARM.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE ANGLE THAT THEY'RE ACTUALLY SELLING, YOU KNOW, IN COMBINATION WITH WHAT YOU JUST SAID, IS SPEED, RIGHT?

THEY'RE SAYING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

IT'S BECAUSE SPEEDS GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE IN THESE TYPES OF MILITARY OPERATIONS, AND I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY DANGEROUS THAT SPEED IS BEING SOLD TO US STRATEGIC HERE BY THESE COMPANIES.

BECAUSE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS, YOU KNOW, CAN JUST BECOME A COVER FOR INDISCRIMINATE TARGETING WHEN YOU CONSIDER HOW INACCURATE THEY ARE, RIGHT?

AND SO YOU'RE NOT ONLY JUST MUDDYING THAT ACCOUNTABILITY, YOU'RE USING A. I. TO LEGITIMIZE THE SPEED IN COMBINATION WITH THEIR LOW ACCURACY RATE, AND IT MIGHT JUST BECOME A HIGH TECH VERSION OF CARPET BOMBING, AND SO I THINK MILITARIES NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL IN ASSESSING THE CLAIMS THESE A. I. COMPANIES ARE PUTTING FORWARD.

FOR EXAMPLE, I ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT DEFENSE STANDARDS ARE SOME OF THE MOST STRICT AND RIGOROUS STANDARDS THAT THERE ARE, RIGHT?

THEY REQUIRE VERY HIGH RELIABILITY RATES FOR A REASON, RIGHT?

AGAIN, LIVES ARE AT STAKE.

AND ALSO IF MILITARY EQUIPMENT FAILS OR YOU'RE OVERUSING YOUR MISSILES FOR CIVILIAN TARGETS, THAT'S NOT AN ADVANTAGE FOR YOU IN WARFARE.

AND YET HERE WE ARE, RIGHT, BEING TOLD BY THESE COMPANIES THAT THIS IS AN ADVANTAGE, AND WE'RE SIGNING AWAY THESE CONTRACTS WHERE WE'RE NO LONGER HAVING THAT RIGOROUS DEFENSE OVERSIGHT.

THESE COMPANIES ARE OFTEN GRADING THEIR OWN HOMEWORK, RIGHT?

AND SO THEY'RE SAYING WE WILL IMPLEMENT THIS NEW SYSTEM FOR YOU AND WE, BECAUSE WE'RE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND THIS SYSTEM, EVALUATE IT FOR YOU.

SO WE'RE ACTUALLY MOVING AWAY FROM THESE RIGOROUS INDEPENDENT VERIFICATION THAT DEFENSE USED TO CARRY OUT GEOPROCUREMENT PROCESS AND JUST BELIEVING WHATTHIES A. I. COMPANIES ARE SAYING.

>> YOU CAN ALSO BELIEVE THERE ARE THESE COMPETITIVE FORCES THAT ARE ALSO AFFECTED BY SPEED.

RIGHT, THERE WAS A RECENT STATEMENT FROM THE CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER OF ANTHROPIC WHO SAID THEY BASICALLY DECIDED TO DROP THEIR FLAGSHIP KIND OF SAFETY PLEDGE.

THEY SAID WE FELT IT WOULDN'T ACTUALLY HELP ANYONE FOR US TO STOP TRAINING A. I. MODELS.

WE DIDN'T REALLY FEEL WITH THE RAPID ADVANCE OF A. I. IT MADE SENSE FOR US TO MAKE UNILATERAL COMMITMENTS IF COMPETITORS ARE BLAZING AHEAD.

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE MANY OTHER TECH COMPANIES THAT HAVE COME BEFORE THEM, OPENA.

I. FOR EXAMPLE, OR GOOGLE, THEY ALWAYS END OF SORT OF DROPPING THEIR SAFETY PLEDGES.

AND ANTHROPIC THEMSELVES ARE JUSTIFYING THIS ROLLBACK BY CLAIMING THEIR RIVALS DIDN'T ADOPT SIMILAR MEASURES BY ENFORCING POSITIONS.

THIS SORT OF IMPLIES THEIR THE RIGHTFUL DEVELOPER OF CAPABILITIES THEY THEMSELVES ADMIT WILL ACCELERATE THE RIVAL --OF THE VERY RISK THEY FEARED.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT SHOWS THE VOLUNTARY POLICY AGAIN CO-OPT THESE SAFETY TERMS TO GIVE THE VENEER OF SAFETY, BUT ULTIMATELY IT WAS NEVER SUFFICIENT TO GUARANTEE ANY MEANINGFUL SAFETY GUARDRAILS.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE'RE MEANT TO HAVE INDEPENDENT OVERSIGHTS OVER WHAT THESE COMPANIES ARE DOING.

FOR THEM THEY CAN JUST LOOK AT THE TERM SAFETY AND CHANGE IT TO MEAN WHATEVER THEY THINK IS SUITABLE AT THE TIME.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CASE OF ANTHROPIC THEY OVEREMPHASIZE ON WHAT THEY CALL CBRN, WHICH IS A. I. HAVING CAPABILITIES TO DEVELOP BIOLOGICAL AND RAID LOGICAL WEAPONS, AND THEIR ENTIRE SAFETY FRAMEWORK WAS SORT OF BASED ON THAT, WHEN YOU SHOULD BE MUCH MORE CONCERNED THAT THE TARGETING ACCURACY, IF YOU'RE PUTTING THESE MODELS IN SORT OF MILITARY DECISION MAKING.

AND SO I THINK WE NEED TO BE CAREFUL WHEN THEY'RE PUTTING FORWARD THIS IDEA OF SAFETY.

>> CHIEF A. I. SCIENTIST AT THE A. I. NOW INSTITUTE HEIDY KHLAAF, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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