>> Announcer: FUNDING FOR TO THE CONTRARY PROVIDED BY THE E. RHODES AND LEONA B. CARPENTER FOUNDATION, THE COLCOM FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION .

>> Bonnie: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY".

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

THIS WEEK, WE SPEAK WITH WOMAN THOUGHT LEADER JANE OLMSTEAD-RUMSEY.

SHE IS A RESEARCHER FROM NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY.

SHE HAS RELEASED A STUDY SHOWING HOW THE COVID-19 VIRUS MAY ALTER GENDER NORMS IN SOCIETY.

WELCOME, JANE.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: I AM WELL, THANKS.

>> Bonnie: SO TELL ME FIRST, I THINK YOU FOCUSED A LOT ON CAREGIVING ROLES.

TELL ME HOW COVID-19 IS CHANGING THOSE ROLES IN JOBS, AND HOMES, HOWEVER IT IS AFFECTING SOCIETY.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: I THINK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECTS OF THIS CRISIS IN TERMS OF GENDER EQUALITY IS THE CHILD CARE NEEDS THAT FAMILIES ARE FACING NOWO WHAT WE LOOK AT IN THE STUDY IS HOW DO COUPLES -- HOW DID COUPLES DIVIDE CHILDCARE RESPONSIBILITIES BEFORE THE CRISIS?

AND TO DO THAT WE USE SURVEY DATA, ASKING COUPLES WHO DOES HOW MUCH CHILD WORK, CHILDCARE WORK.

AND WHAT WE FIND IS THAT EVEN AMONG COUPLES WHERE BOTH PARTNERS WORK, WOMEN TEND TO DO A MAJORITY OF THE CHILD WORK, AROUND 60 PERCENT.

AND SO, IF WE EXPECT THOSE TYPES OF DIVISIONS OF LABOR TO CONTINUE DURING THE PANDEMIC WHEN SCHOOLS AND TAKERS ARE CLOSED, THAT IMPLIES A HUGE INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF TIME THAT WOMEN ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SPEND TAKING CARE OF KIDS.

AND THIS CAN AFFECT WOMEN'S LABOR SUPPLY DECISIONS AS WELL.

SO IF COUPLES REACH A DECISION THAT BASICALLY THE MOTHER IS GOING TO TAKE ON THE SAME AMOUNT, THE SAME PROPORTION OF CHILDCARE WORK AS BEFORE, THIS, IN SOME CASES, WILL FORCE WOMEN TO LEAVE THEIR JOBS, BASICALLY, BECAUSE THERE'S TOO ANY CONSTRAINTS ON THE TIME THAT THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BOTH WORK AND SPEND TIME HOMESCHOOLING THE KIDS AND PERFORMING OTHER TASKS THAT NEED TO BE DONE AT HOME.

>> Bonnie: SO HOW DO YOU THINK THAT WILL IMPACT HOW COUPLES SHARE CHILDCARE CAREGIVING AND ELDER CAREGIVING?

WE ALL KNOW WOMEN ARE NOT JUST THE MAJORITY OF CAREGIVERS FOR THEIR CHILDREN, BUT FOR THEIR PARENTS AS WELL.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: ONE ASPECT THAT WE TALK ABOUT, AND THAT WE THAT WE FIND QUITE INTERESTING IS IN THE PAPER, WE LOOK AT COUPLES WHERE THE WOMAN IN THE COUPLE IS AN ESSENTIAL WORKER, SAID DOCTOR, BUT HER HUSBAND IS ABLE TO TELECOMMUTE.

SO IN THOSE COUPLES, WE WILL SEE POTENTIALLY A NEW DIVISION OF CHILDCARE WHERE KIDS ARE AT HOME, THE HUSBAND IS ABLE TO TELECOMMUTE OR MAY HAVE LOST HIS JOB, UNFORTUNATELY IT AND IN THOSE CASES, MEN WILL SEE THEMSELVES BECOMING PRIMARY CAREGIVERS IN SOME CASES FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND SO, THIS IN THE LONG TERM MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE POSITIVE IMPLICATIONS FOR GENDER EQUALITY BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM STUDIES ABOUT PATERNITY LEAVE THAT EVEN SMALL CHANGES IN MEN'S INVOLVEMENT IN CHILDCARE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE LASTING IMPLICATIONS FOR HOW MUCH TIME THEY SPEND WITH THE KIDS.

SO IN THOSE COUPLES WHERE MEN ARE SPENDING MORE TIME, WE ARGUE THAT ACTUALLY THIS COULD INCREASE INEQUALITY IN THE DIVISION OF CHILDCARE AND ELDER CARE AND COUPLES.

>> Bonnie: FOR QUITEQUITE SOME TIME, I DON'T KNOW, A DECADE MAYBE, MORE MEN HAVE BEEN GOING INTO NURSING, WOMEN WERE ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY NURSES IN THIS COUNTRY.

THEY WERE VERY FEW MEN, SAY, 20 YEARS AGO.

BUT AS THEY DEVELOPED A SHORTAGE OF NURSES, THE PAY WENT UP AND SOME NURSES NOW MAKE WHAT DOCTORS ARE MAKING WHEN THEY ARE RUNNING A WHOLE, YOU KNOW, FLOOR OF NURSES IN THE BIG HOSPITAL OR SOMETHING.

AND SO, WILL WE SEE -- SO MEN STARTED TO CREEP INTO THE NURSING PROFESSION BECAUSE THE MONEY BECAME BETTER THAN WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEFORE THAT.

SO WILL WE SEE THE SAME THING NOW EXCEPT ON A LARGER SCALE?

WILL WE SEE MORE MEN BECAUSE THEY ARE CAREGIVING AT HOME AND THEN THEIR KIDS GROW UP AND MOVE OUT OF THE HOUSE?

OH, I CAN BE A NURSE NOW.

I'VE HAD THE EXPERIENCE -- I HAVE TO GO TO SCHOOL OBVIOUSLY, BUT MAYBE THEY DO THAT WHILE KIDS ARE IN HIGH SCHOOL GROWING UP.

BUT WILL WE SEE THAT HAPPEN IN THE NURSING FIELD?

LET'S SOON BE 50b¥¥0?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: I THINK THERE IS CERTAINLY POTENTIAL FOR KIND OF LEARNING BY DOING EFFECT, RIGHT?

THE MORE CAREGIVING THAT MEN DO THE MORE POTENTIAL THEY FEEL IN THEIR SELVES TO DO THAT TYPE OF WORK.

WE ALSO CITE SOME STUDIES IN OUR PAPER SHOWING THAT BOYS WHO GREW UP WITH WORKING MOTHERS DURING WORLD WAR II WERE MORE LIKELY TO MARRY WOMEN WHO WANTED TO WORK AS WELL.

AND SO, THE EFFECT THAT KIDS GET FROM SEEING THEIR FATHERS BEING MORE INVOLVED CAN ALSO POTENTIALLY HAVE LONG-TERM IMPLICATIONS FOR WHAT TYPES OF JOBS THEY ARE INTERESTED IN DOING.

>> Bonnie: I ACTUALLY REMEMBER AT THE BEGINNING OF THE .com BUST, I WAS IN SAN FRANCISCO VISITING ONE OF MY CLOTHES FRIENDS.

WE WENT OUT TO MILL VALLEY FOR BREAKFAST AND COFFEE.

AND THERE WAS THIS WONDERFUL COFFEE SHOP WITH A PLAYGROUND AND PARKED OUTSIDE OF IT.

AND I NOTICED THAT THERE WERE b ÃÃIN THIS GOES BACK MANY, SEVERAL DECADES, ANYWAY.

AND I NOTICED THAT THE PARENTS TAKING CARE OF THE CHILDREN WERE ALL MEN.

I SAID TO MY FRIEND, WHILE, CALIFORNIA, JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE, IS WAY AHEAD OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

OU NEVER GO TO A WASHINGTON PLAYGROUND AND SEE ALL FATHERS TAKING CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN, WASHINGTON D.C., I MEAN, OR NEW YORK CITY OR ANY OF THAT.

HE SAID, NO, BONNIE, THIS IS NOT CALIFORNIA BEING AHEAD OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

THIS IS THE.COM BUST AND THE FATHERS LOST THEIR JOBS AND THE MOTHERS ARE STILL WORKING.

SO HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT THAT?

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE REALLY WAS A BOOM OF MEN PROVIDING CARE TO THEIR CHILDREN YEARS AND YEARS AGO?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YES.

THAT'S ACTUALLY ONE THING WE TALK ABOUT IN THE PAPER.

PAST RECESSIONS HAVE BEEN WHAT WE CALL MAN'S SESSION.

IN PREVIOUS FINANCIAL CRISES, BECAUSE OF THE SECTORS THAT MEN VERSUS WOMEN TEND TO WORK IN, MEN TEND TO WORK IN MORE CYCLICAL SECTORS LIKE TRADE, TRANSPORTATION, MANUFACTURING.

BUT THIS CRISIS IS LIKELY TO BE QUITE DIFFERENT.

SO ANOTHER ASPECT OF THIS CRISIS FOR GENDER EQUALITY IS JUST THE FACT THAT WOMEN ARE NOW MORE LIKELY TO LOSE THEIR JOBS DURING THIS CRISIS, ACCORDING TO A VERY RECENT DATA THAT'S COMING IN, THAN MEN ARE.

SUNPASS CRISES, MAYBE MEN WERE SPENDING MORE TIME WITH THEIR KIDS, AS YOU SAY.

BUT IN THIS ONE, IT'S MORE LIKELY MOTHERS THAT WILL BE LOSING THEIR JOBS.

>> Bonnie: HEALTHCARE JOBS, WOMEN ARE PREDOMINANTLY -- FILLMORE HEALTHCARE JOBS, OF COURSE, MOSTLY AT THE LOWER ECHELON DO MEN AND YET THEY ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS DURING THIS COVID-19 CRISIS?

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THAT WORKS.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: WE'RE SEEING THAT ACTUALLY A BIG DECLINE IN GDP IS DUE TO REDUCTION IN HEALTHCARE SPENDING BY CONSUMERS, DESPITE THIS PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

ACTUALLY, MANY PEOPLE ARE CANCELING ELECTIVE SURGERIES AND OTHER MEDICAL PROCEDURES THAT CAN BE DELAYED AND SO, THE HEALTHCARE SECTOR IS ACTUALLY SOME OF THE BIGGEST LAYOFFS OF ANY SECTOR.

>> Bonnie: BUT ELABORATE ON THAT FOR ME, IF HE COULD, BECAUSE ONE WITH THINGS JUST BY WATCHING THE NEWS THAT ALL THESE WOMEN BEING THE MOST OF THE HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS, THAT BECAUSE OF COVID-19, BECAUSE OF WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE EMERGENCY ROOMS AND FILLING HOSPITAL BEDS, A LOT OF THAT WITH ME MADE UP FOR.

BUT NO GOOD AND DOCTORS, BY THE WAY, I'VE SEEN TWO DOCTORS NOW BY COMPUTER.

SO DOCTORS ARE SWITCHING THE PRIVATE PRACTICE APPOINTMENTS TO COMPUTER ANYWAY.

SO I HAVE NOT CANCELED ANY VISITS.

I'M JUST DOING THEM VIRTUALLY.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YEAH.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT HOSPITALS MAKE A LOT OF THEIR MONEY DOING THESE BIG SURGERIES, ELECTIVE SURGERIES.

AND SO, IT KIND OF DEPENDS WHERE THE BIG MONEY MAKERS ARE FOR THE HEALTHCARE SECTOR.

AND THOSE TEND TO BE THINGS WHERE YOU HAVE TO BASICALLY BE THERE.

SO YOUR ROUTINE APPOINTMENTS CAN GO ON, BUT WHEN HOSPITALS AREN'T THINKING ABOUT THEIR BUDGETING, THEY ARE REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THESE BIG PROCEDURES THAT PEOPLE ARE CANCELING NOW OR DELAYING.

>> Bonnie: HOW CAN FIRST RESPONDERS BE PROTECTED IN ALL OF THIS?

AND WE KNOW THAT WOMEN ARE CREEPING UP WHEN IT COMES TO EQUALITY AMONG DOCTORS, WOMEN STILL PREDOMINATE AMONG NURSES.

WHAT ABOUT EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE?

WHERE ARE WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR IN THAT FIELD AND HOW IS COVID CHANGING GENDER NORMS IN THE FIELD?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: I'M AWARE THAT PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE OVERREPRESENTED FOR SURE IN THOSE OCCUPATIONS.

AND I THINK IT'S JUST IMPORTANT FOR POLICYMAKERS TO, YOU KNOW, LISTEN TO WORKERS ABOUT WHAT THEY NEED.

>> Bonnie: YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE IS FUTURE RESEARCH IN YOUR STUDY ABOUT A RISE IN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

BUT WHAT IS THE STUDY SHOWED SO FAR WHEN IT COMES TO THE LIKELIHOOD AMONG MEN AND WOMEN?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES ON THIS STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE TENDS TO RISE IN RECESSIONS AND IS RELATED TO MEN'S UNEMPLOYMENT.

SOME WOMEN FEEL FRUSTRATED AND FACE JOB LOSS, THAT CAN INCREASE THE RISK OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THE HOME.

AND WE EXPECT THAT THAT WILL BE MUCH WORSE THAN THIS CRISIS.

ALTHOUGH POLICYMAKERS ARE TAKING STEPS TO, FOR EXAMPLE, PROVIDE HOTEL ROOMS FOR SURVIVORS TO USE AND ACCESS WHEN THEY FACE THOSE SITUATIONS, BUT WE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE RISK OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

AND WHEN YOU READ ABOUT WHAT'S THE DATA ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE DURING THE CRISIS, SO FAR IT'S CLEAR THAT AROUND THE WORLD THERE HAS BEEN A HUGE UPTICK IN CALLS FOR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE INCIDENTS.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU.

AND WHAT'S THIS GOING TO DO TO THE MOVEMENT FOR PAID FAMILY LEAVE AND MEDICAL LEAVE?

IT'S ALREADY BEEN GOING ON IN THIS COUNTRY FOR SOME 20 YEARS.

I HAVE HEARD THE DATA SO MANY TIMES THAT WE FALL AWAY BEHIND EUROPE AND THE REST, MOST OF THE REST OF THE DEVELOPED COUNTRIES AND EVEN A LOT OF NON-DEVELOPED COUNTRIES IN TERMS OF PAYING PARENTS TO TAKE A BREAK AND STAY AT HOME WITH THEIR CHILDREN WHEN THEY ARE FIRST BORN, ETC., ETC.

WERE VERY SICK ELDERLY PARENT.

WHAT WILL THAT DO FOR THE MOVEMENT HERE?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: WELL, I HOPE THAT THIS CRISIS WILL HIGHLIGHT THIS SHORTCOMING OF US POLICY MAKING, THE LACK OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE KNOW THAT JOB LOSSES, ESPECIALLY DURING RECESSIONS, CAN HAVE VERY LONG-LASTING AND SEVERE CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE.

IN MANY OF THE JOB LOSSES IN THIS CRISIS WILL BE DUE TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE NO FLEXIBILITY TO TAKE SOME TIME OFF.

CALIFORNIA HAS TAKEN INTERESTING THING STEPS TO PROVIDE SOME PAID FAMILY LEAVE FOR PEOPLE CARING FOR THE CHILDREN, BUT THEY ARE ONE OF THE FEW STATES TO DO SO.

IN THE CARES ACT, ONE OF THE STIMULUS BILLS THAT WAS PASSED, INCLUDED FAMILY LEAVE.

BUT THAT LEAVE WAS UNPAID.

AND SO, IN MANY CASES, THAT'S NOT REALLY SUSPICION FOR PEOPLE.

SO I THINK ONE POTENTIAL KIND OF SILVERLINING FOR THIS CRISIS MIGHT BE TO HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE EMPLOYEE AND EMPLOYER LINKS THAT WE CAN PRESERVE THEIR PAID FAMILY LEAVE POLICIES DURING CRISES LIKE THIS ONE.

>> Bonnie: HAS THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC HAD AN EFFECT ON JOBS, MEANING, FOR EXAMPLE, OTHER CATEGORIES OF WORKERS WHO WERE NOT CONSIDERED ESSENTIAL BEFORE THE PANDEMIC BUT ARE CONSIDERED ESSENTIAL NOW?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YES.

FOR EXAMPLE, GROCERY STORE WORKERS, IT'S BECOME CLEAR THAT THOSE WORKERS PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN ALL OF OUR LIVES.

BUT ALSO GOING BACK ALONG THE FOOD SUPPLY CHAIN, BACK TO MEATPACKING WORKERS, AGRICULTURAL WORKERS, WE ARE REALIZING THAT THESE WORKERS ARE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO ALL OF US.

AND THEN OF COURSE HEALTHCARE WORKERS IS THE OTHER MAIN CATEGORY THAT WE ARE REALIZING JUST HOW ESSENTIAL THEY ARE.

>> Bonnie: BUT OTHER THAN DOCTORS AND NURSES AND PHYSICIANS ASSISTANTS WHO ARE OVERALL WELL-PAID, A LOT OF THE HEALTHCARE JOBS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, AS WELL AS, FOR EXAMPLE, MEATPACKING -- YOU KNOW, THEY ARE MINIMUM WAGE.

HOW DO YOU PROTECT THOSE WORKERS?

DO YOU REALLY THINK COMPANIES ARE GOING TO BE WILLING TO PAY FOR FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE FOR THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY CAN GET THEM ON A GIG BASIS, MEANING PAID BY THE HOUR, PAID BY THE DAY, NO BENEFITS?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: WE ARE HOPING THAT THE CRISIS SHEDS LIGHT ON HOW ESSENTIAL THESE WORKERS ARE AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO PROTECT THEM.

ONE ASPECT THAT CAN BE USEFUL IS IF OTHER COMPANIES MAY BE WITH HIGHER PAID EMPLOYEES EXTEND THOSE TYPES OF BENEFITS.

THAT CAN CREATE A COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT AMONG FIRMS TRYING TO ATTRACT WORKERS WHERE THEN FIRMS ENTER INTO COMPETITION WITH EACH OTHER AND START PROVIDING THOSE BENEFITS KIND OF AS A BASELINE.

>> Bonnie: BUT HOW REALISTIC DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: WE ARE A LONG WAY FROM THAT.

BUT I THINK WE ARE THE CLOSEST THAT WE HAVE EVER BEEN IN A SENSE BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS CRISIS IS REALLY ILLUMINATED THE IMPORTANCE OF THESE WORKERS.

>> Bonnie: ARE THERE OTHER WAYS THAN AMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE TO TO PROTECT WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO ARE THE MOST VULNERABLE TO BEING LET GO OR EVEN IF THEY HAVE SOME UNPAID LEAVE, LOSING THEIR JOBS IF THEY TRIED TO TAKE IT?

IS ANYTHING ELSE GOING ON AT THAT LEVEL, ASIDE FROM JUST TRYING TO GET PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE?

IS CONGRESS OR ARE ACTIVISTS ON THIS ISSUE TRYING TO GET OTHER PROTECTIONS FOR LOWER INCOME WORKERS?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: THE OTHER SYSTEM THAT'S IN PLACE RIGHT NOW TO HELP THOSE SORTS OF WORKERS, IF THEY ARE TO LOSE THEIR JOB, IS KIND OF THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET, UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE.

SO THERE IT'S BEEN VERY ENCOURAGING TO SEE, FOR EXAMPLE, GOOD WORKERS AND SELF-EMPLOYED PEOPLE BEING INCLUDED IN UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE SYSTEM FOR THE FIRST TIME.

BEYOND THAT, WE DISCUSSED IN THE PAPER HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO REMOVE REQUIREMENTS FROM SOCIAL DISTANCING PROGRAMS THAT RECIPIENTS BE SEARCHING FOR WORK, BECAUSE MANY PARENTS CAN'T SEARCH FOR WORK RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY'RE UNEMPLOYED BECAUSE THEY'RE PROVIDING CHILDCARE.

AND SO ACCOUNTING FOR THOSE TYPES OF SITUATIONS, FAMILY SITUATIONS, IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN THE DESIGN OF PUBLIC PRIVACY.

>> Bonnie: I BELIEVE IN TITLE NOW THERE ARE 18 STATES THAT HAVE SOME FORM OF PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

USUALLY DIPPING INTO RESERVES FROM THE UNEMPLOYMENT FUNDS THAT HAVE BUILT UP.

BUT WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING NOW?

I MEAN, AREN'T ALL THE UNEMPLOYMENT FUNDS GOING TO GO FOR ACTUAL UNEMPLOYMENT CLAIMS, BECAUSE UNEMPLOYMENT IS AS HIGH AS IT'S BEEN AND HIGHER THAN THE LAST RECESSION, THE 2008 RECESSION?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YES.

THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

IN STATE AND LOCAL BUDGETS ARE STRETCHED EXTREMELY THIN RIGHT NOW.

SO FEDERAL ASSISTANCE FOR STATES TO TOP OF THOSE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUNDS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

BEYOND THAT, I THINK THERE ARE OTHER PROGRAMS THAT CAN BE IMPLEMENTED TO SUPPLEMENT THAT PAID FAMILY LEAVE PROGRAM.

TWO OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY AND DENMARK PROVIDE DIRECT SUBSIDIES TO FIRMS TO KEEP PEOPLE ON THEIR PAYROLL, WHICH IS ANOTHER WAY OF BASICALLY OFFERING PAID FAMILY LEAVE.

SO IN GERMANY AND DENMARK, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY ALLOW PEOPLE TO SUBSTANTIALLY REDUCE THEIR HOURS DOWN TO MAYBE 10 PERCENT OF WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEFORE AND THE GOVERNMENT WILL GIVE A SUBSIDY TO THE FIRM.

THAT WOULD BE MAYBE A DIFFERENT POT OF MONEY THAN THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, MONEY.

>> Bonnie: THERE IS ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE WESTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES AND HOW GREAT MOST OF THEIR FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE, PAID FAMILY AND MEDICAL LEAVE SYSTEMS ARE.

HOW DO THEY DO IT?

ARE TAXES HIGHER THERE THAN THEY ARE HERE?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: TAXES THERE IS SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER, BOTH ON FIRMS AND ON INDIVIDUALS.

>> Bonnie: WHY ARE PEOPLE OKAY WITH THAT HERE AND A LOT OF AMERICANS WOULD NOT BE OKAY WITH THAT?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK IN THE SHORT RUN, IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO RAISE TAXES, ESPECIALLY IN AN ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT THAT WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW.

AND SO, ANOTHER OPTION IS TO BORROW.

INTEREST RATES ARE AT HISTORIC LOWS RIGHT NOWO BORROWING IS PRETTY EASY FOR THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW.

AND THEN I GUESS TO RAISE TAXES IN THE FUTURE IS KIND OF THE WAY THAT GOVERNMENTS ARE THINKING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW.

>> Bonnie: I NOW, I DID WANT TO GET ONE TO ONE POINT IN YOUR STUDY AND IT STUDY CLAIMED THIS CRISIS HAS THE POTENTIAL TO REDUCE GENDER INEQUALITY DUE TO SEW MANY WOMEN BEING AMONG THE FIRST RESPONDERS.

I KNOW WE TOUCHED A LITTLE ON THAT BEFORE.

BUT CAN YOU ANSWER THAT SPECIFIC QUESTION FOR ME, PLEASE> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YES.

SO WE THINK THAT ONE ASPECT OF THIS CRISIS THAT IS KIND OF A SILVERLINING IS THAT IT MAY BRING ABOUT MORE FLEXIBLE WORK ARRANGEMENTS FOR MANY PEOPLE AND EMPLOYERS WILL BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THE CHILDCARE NEEDS OF THEIR EMPLOYEES.

SO I THINK THE COMMON EXPENSE FOR MANY PEOPLE THESE DAYS IS TO BE ON HIS RESUME CALL OR A SKYPE CALL AND SEE A KID RUNNING AROUND IN THE BACKGROUND.

SO FOR MANY BOSSES, THEY ARE SEEING THEIR EMPLOYEES' KIDS FOR THE FIRST TIME AND KIND OF UNDERSTANDING THE NEED TO BE A BIT FLEXIBLE WHEN PEOPLE SAY, OH, I NEED TO SPEND AN HOUR WITH MY KIDS DURING THE WORKDAY.

CAN I MAKE IT UP LATER?

SO WE ARE HOPING THAT, ESPECIALLY FOR THESE ESSENTIAL WORKERS, THAT SOME MORE FLEXIBILITY IS GOING TO BE OFFERED IN THE FUTURE.

>> Bonnie: WHAT KIND OF JOBS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERED FLEXIBILITY UP TILL THIS CRISIS ARE GOING TO START -- ARE IN A POSITION TO OFFER A MORE OF IT?

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN, FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S PRETTY COMMON AMONG LAWYERS, FOR EXAMPLE, TO DO A LOT OF WORK FROM HOME, JOBS WITH A LOT OF TRAVEL MAY BE WON'T HAVE SO MUCH TRAVEL IN THE FUTURE BECAUSE MEETINGS CAN BE DONE VIRTUALLY.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: SO THERE IS AN HONOR.

ECONOMIST AT HARVARD, CLAUDIA GOLDMAN, SHE HAS WORKED ARGUING THAT SOME OF THE REMAINING SECTORS WITH THE BIGGEST GENDER WAGE GAPS ARE THESE LEGAL AND BUSINESS AND FINANCIAL SERVICES INDUSTRIES.

SO LAWYERS DO A LOT OF WORK FROM HOME, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE HIGH FACE TIME REQUIREMENTS.

SUNPASS, THEY HAVE REALLY BEEN REQUIRED TO COME INTO THE OFFICE AND DO THEIR WORK AND YOUR KIND OF REWARDED FOR THE GREATER TIME IS SPENT IN THE OFFICE, THE GREATER YOUR CHANCE OF GETTING PROMOTED.

AND SO, THAT HAS REALLY HELD WOMEN BACK, WOMEN WHO NEED TO GO UP AND PICK UP THE KIDS OR PICK UP ELDERLY PARENTS, DO SOME CAREGIVING DURING THE DAY.

BUT WE ARE SEEING NOW THAT A LOT OF WORK CAN BE DONE FROM HOME AND THE SPACE TIME REQUIREMENTS CAN BE FULFILLED IN VIDEO CALLS AT TIMES THAT WORK FOR BOTH PARTICIPANTS.

SO WE ARE HOPING THAT IN THAT ASPECT WE CAN CLOSE THE GENDER WAGE GAP, AT LEAST PARTIALLY BECAUSE OF THIS CRISIS OFFERING PEOPLE GREATER FLEXIBILITY.

>> Bonnie: NOW, IN TERMS OF TECHNOLOGY, WHAT TECHNOLOGY DO YOU SEE WILL BE NECESSARY TO ACCOMMODATE THIS?

ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A MUCH GREATER BANDWIDTH SO PEOPLE CAN MEET VIRTUALLY, WHO HAVE BEEN MEETING IN PERSON IN THE PAST, OR IS THE NATION GOING TO HAVE TO BUILD UP ITS 5G SYSTEM, WHICH IS FASTER AND BETTER, AND A MUCH MORE RAPID PACE THAN IT HAS BEEN DOING SO FAR?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YES.

THAT'S RIGHT.

AND I THINK SOME OF THESE ISSUES THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, THE GENDER GAP AND THESE LEGAL AND FINANCIAL OCCUPATIONS, REALLY APPLIES TO THE HIGH INCOME PART OF THE DISTRIBUTION.

AND WE WORRY, ACTUALLY, A LITTLE BIT MORE WHEN IT COMES TO PARENTING ABOUT ACCESS TO TECHNOLOGY AT THE LOWER PART OF THE INCOME DISTRIBUTION.

SO HOW ARE KIDS GOING TO BE ACCESSING HOMESCHOOLING IF THEY DON'T HAVE SUFFICIENT INTERNET ACCESS?

SO IN BOTH CASES, I THINK THE ANSWER IS KIND OF MAKING SURE EVERYONE HAS GOOD, HIGH QUALITY INTERNET AND CAN COMMUNICATE WITH THE PEOPLE THAT THEY NEED TO COMMUNICATE WITH.

>> Bonnie: AND EQUIPMENT.

GOOD LAPTOPS, GOOD SELFLESS, GOOD WHATEVER IT IS.

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: TABLETS.

>> Bonnie: WHATEVER YOU NEED.

I MEAN, IS THAT GOING TO BECOME A FEDERAL RESPONSIBILITY TO PAY FOR THAT FOR LOW INCOME WOMEN AND WOMEN OF COLOR?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: WE SEE, FOR EXAMPLE, I'M IN CHICAGO AND CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAS BEEN HANDING OUT TABLETS AND LAPTOPS TO ITS STUDENTSO I THINK THIS IS TENDING TO BE AT THE MUNICIPAL AND SCHOOL DISTRICT LEVEL.

BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY A RESPONSIBILITY OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS.

AND SO, PUBLIC SCHOOLS SEEM TO BE TAKING THAT UPON THEMSELVES TO PROVIDE THAT TYPE OF ACCESS.

I'M NOT AWARE OF FEDERAL PROGRAMS RELATED TO THAT.

>> Bonnie: PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IN THE STUDY DO YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT I HAVE NOT ASKED YOU ABOUT YET?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: L, ONE THING AND WHAT TO TALK ABOUT IS WHAT TYPES OF PEOPLE CAN TELECOMMUTE?

SO WE LOOK IN THIS STUDY AT A SURVEY ASKING PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT OCCUPATIONS WHETHER THEY ARE ABLE TO TELECOMMUTE.

HERE ARE A COUPLE INTERESTING FINDINGS THERE: SO WHAT IS THAT OVERALL, MEN ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE ABLE TO TELL ACUTE THAN WOMEN.

AND SO, THAT'S ANOTHER FACTOR SUGGESTING WOMEN ARE MORE AT RISK OF LOSING THEIR JOBS, BECAUSE IN GENERAL, PEOPLE CAN TELECOMMUTE AND THEY CAN PROBABLY KEEP THEIR JOBS, AT LEAST IN THE SHORT TERM.

BUT THE OTHER REALLY INTERESTING FINDING WAS THAT SINGLE PARENTS, BOTH SINGLE MEN AND SINGLE WOMEN, ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE ABLE TO TELECOMMUTE.

AND SO, THIS REALLY HIGHLIGHTS A KEY FINDING IN OUR REPORT WHICH IS THAT SINGLE PARENTS ARE REALLY, REALLY AT RISK IN THIS CRISIS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO ONE TO SHARE CHILDCARE RESPONSIBILITIES WITH AND THEY ARE ALSO REALLY AT A GREATER RISK OF LOSING THEIR JOBS.

ONE FACT WE KNOW ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS SO FAR IS THAT THEY TEND TO BE LOWER INCOME AND THESE TEND TO BE SINGLE PARENTS.

SO WERE QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT AND THIS IS A NEW FINDING IN OUR REPORT, BASICALLY, ABOUT CHARACTERISTICS OF OCCUPATIONS THAT CAN TELECOMMUTE.

>> Bonnie: BUT HOW CAN YOU CHANGE THAT?

I MEAN, CERTAIN JOBS, YOU JUST CANNOT TELECOMMUTE.

FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE A JANITOR IN YOUR CLEANING FLOORS, YOU CAN DO THAT REMOTELY.

SO HOW?

WHAT'S THE ANSWER TO THAT?

DO YOU HAVE TO GET PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT NOW WHO ARE MORE BETTER EDUCATED SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO THOSE JOBS?

THEN AGAIN, WHO IS GOING TO DO THOSE JOBS?

>> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: YEAH.

IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

IS NOT AN OPTION THAT'S AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE SOME KIND OF MARGINAL CASES WHERE MAYBE THE WORK CAN BE DONE AT HOME BUT IT JUST HAS NOT IN THE PAST.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU HAVE ANY EXAMPLES OF THAT?

>> Bonnie: MANY KIND OF ADMINISTRATIVE TYPE OF JOBS.

SO LIKE AN OFFICE ASSISTANT, MAYBE SOME OF THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES CAN REALLY BE DONE FROM HOME, SOME MAYBE NOT.

BUT I THINK WE ARE KIND OF LOOKING AT WHAT A JOB IS AND IN IN A NEW WAY AND SOME PARTS OF A JOB CAN BE DONE AT HOME SO PEOPLE CAN SPEND MAYBE A COUPLE DAYS A WEEK AT HOME, AND THAT GIVES THEM GREATER POSSIBILITY TO MANAGE OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR FAMILY.

>> Bonnie: NOW I'M ASKING YOU TO LOOK IN YOUR CRYSTAL BALL AND YOUR BALL MAY BE PRETTY HAZY OR MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE ONE TODAY.

BUT DO YOU SEE WAYS IN WHICH THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC IS GOING TO CHANGE HOW WOMEN AND MEN WORK IN AMERICA FOREVER?> Jane Olmstead-Rumsey: I THINK IT DEFINITELY WELL.

WITNESSES ARE ADOPTING, YOU KNOW, THESE SORTS OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO WORK FROM HOME AT A RAPID SCALE, MUCH FASTER PACE THAN WE HAVE EVER SEEN BEFORE.

AND I THINK THAT'S GOING TO HAVE LASTING EFFECTS ON WHERE PEOPLE PERFORM THEIR JOBS.

MANY MORE JOBS WILL I THINK BE DONE AT HOME.

IN MANY CASES, WE SEE THAT WHEN PEOPLE HAVE THE OPTION TO TELECOMMUTE, THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT.

THAT IS ONE ASPECT AS WE SAID, I THINK ANOTHER ASPECT IS KIND OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT ARE THE ESSENTIAL OCCUPATIONS IN THE WORKFORCE AND MAYBE SOME POLICY CHANGES TO OUR SOCIAL SAFETY NET THAT WILL SUPPORT THOSE OCCUPATIONS AS WELL.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU SO MUCH, JANE OLMSTEAD-RUMSEY.

YOU ARE A RESEARCHER FROM NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY, HAVING CO-AUTHORED A STUDY ON HOW COVID-19 IS CHANGING GENDER NORMS IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE WORKPLACE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING.

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