>> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", THE WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, WOMEN WORK AND COVID.

BETWEEN AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER, MORE THAN 850,000 WOMEN LEFT THE WORKFORCE COMPARED WITH JUST MORE THAN 200,000 MEN PEERED A RECENT STUDY FOUND THE PANDEMIC HAS ONE IN FOUR WOMEN CONSIDERING LEAVING THE WORKFORCE OR DOWNSHIFTING THEIR CAREER.

JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER MARILYN CONGRESSWOMAN DONNA EDWARDS, LINDA CHAVEZ, CHAIR OF THE CENTER FOR EQUAL OPPORTUNITY, FORMER JUDGE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTOR DEBRA CARNAHAN, AND ANN STONE, COFOUNDER OF WOMEN FOR TRUMP.

OKAY.

LET'S START WITH YOU, DONNA EDWARDS, FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSWOMAN FROM MARYLAND.

WHY ARE WOMEN DROPPING OUT?

I AM SURE SINCE IT IS WOMEN -- FOUR TIMES AS MANY WOMEN AS MEN, THAT ALSO MEANS FOUR TIMES -- MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE, A LARGE PERCENT OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE WOMEN OF COLOR.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, I THINK IN THIS COVID ENVIRONMENT, THE IMPACT FOR WOMEN IS HUGE.

FIRST OF ALL, WE KNOW THAT EVEN IF MEN IN THE HOUSEHOLD DO A LOT OF STUFF, THEY DON'T DO AS MUCH AS WOMEN DO IN TERMS OF BEING CAREGIVERS.

AND NOW WOMEN ARE WORKING AT HOME, THEY ARE CAREGIVERS AT HOME, THEY ARE TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN AT HOME.

IS A HUGE LOAD FOR THEM.

AND SO, IT'S ACTUALLY NOT SURPRISING TO ME THAT SOME OF THEM ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I GOT TO DITCH ONE OF THESE THINGS.

THEY CANNOT TEACH THEIR CHILDREN AND THEY CANNOT DITCH THEIR CAREGIVING.

AND SO, THEY ARE MAKING DECISIONS TO DITCH THEIR JOBS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THEY ARE SOME OF THE MOST SENIOR LEVEL WOMEN, AND IT POTENTIALLY ERASES THE GAMES THAT WOMEN HAVE MADE OVER, YOU KNOW, THIS PERIOD OF TIME, AND IT MEANS THAT WE ARE STARTING FROM SCRATCH AGAIN TO BUILD THE KIND OF WORKFORCE THAT WILL END UP IN THE BOARD ROOMS AND AT THE SENIOR LEADERSHIP LEVELS.

>> Bonnie: ANN STONE, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Anne Stone: I TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING DONNA JUST SAID, BUT IT IS PART AND PARCEL OF WHAT IS HAPPENED DURING THIS WHOLE ADVENTURE.

BEING AT HOME AND BEING WITH HER CHILDREN AND BEING WITH YOUR FAMILY, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE RETHINKING PRIORITIES.

AND I THINK YOU WILL SEE THIS WILL CHANGE AROUND.

GIVE THEM A FEW MORE MONTHS.

AS MY SISTERS USED TO SAY, THAT'S THE POINT WHERE YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE PEOPLE THAT WERE OVER THREE FEET TALL.

SO AT SOME POINT, IT MAY IN FACT TURN AROUND.

BUT I THINK ANOTHER THING YOU WILL SEE COMING OUT OF THIS IS MORE HOME-BASED BUSINESSES, WHICH WOMEN EXCEL AT.

AND I THINK YOU WILL SEE THAT.

BUT I THINK IT WILL BE A REAL TRANSFORMATION OVERALL IN THE ECONOMY WITH MORE PEOPLE WORKING FROM HOME.

>> Bonnie: LINDA?

>> Linda Chavez: WELL, I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY NOT GOING TO BE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY PROBLEM.

I THINK THAT IF YOU ARE HIGH INCOME WOMEN, PARTICULARLY IF IT IS A TWO PARENT HOUSEHOLD, YOU MAY HAVE THE CHOICE TO STAY HOME.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW SUCH CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE KIDS, WHETHER IT'S SAFE TO SEND THE BACK-TO-SCHOOL, BUT FOR LOW INCOME WOMEN FOR, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO CLEAN BUILDINGS OR, YOU KNOW, DELIVERED THE GROCERIES OR -- >> Bonnie: OR WAITRESSES.

>> Linda Chavez: RIGHT.

THEY MAY VERY WELL NOT HAVE A CHOICE.

WHAT THAT WILL MEAN AS THEY MAY BE GOING BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE, BUT THEIR KIDS ARE GOING TO BE HOME ALONE.

THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

>> Bonnie: DEBRA CARNAHAN, SPEAK TO THE NEED FOR ANOTHER PACKAGE AID FOR THE ECONOMY.

>> Debra Carnahan: WE DEFINITELY, BONNIE, NEED ANOTHER AID PACKAGE.

WE ARE COMING INTO THE WINTER.

IT IS FLU SEASON ON TOP OF THE VIRUS SEASON.

I HEARD WHAT ANNE SAID.

I DO NOT THINK IT WILL BE A CHOICE OF, WELL, LET'S JUST KIND OF -- ANN, IF I AM PARAPHRASING WRONG, I APOLOGIZE.

>> Anne Stone: I WILL LET YOU KNOW.

>> Debra Carnahan: I AM SURE YOU WILL.

BUT I THINK WHAT YOU WOULD SAY IS LOOK AT THIS, THEY'LL PRIORITIZE, BUT IT WILL BE LIKE THREE MONTHS.

THIS IS NECESSITY.

THIS IS NECESSITY, MAN, AND THIS IS NOT CHOICE.

THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO.

AND WOMEN ARE LOOKING AT, YEAH, MY FAMILY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PRIORITY, BUT I ALSO DO THE MAJORITY OF THE HOUSEWORK.

I ALSO AM A MAJOR BREADWINNER.

I ALSO AM A PERSON, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS BEEN COEQUAL AT TIMES WITH MY PARTNER, WHETHER IT BE A MALE OR FEMALE, AND BRINGING IN MONEY, AND SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE HERE.

SOMETHING'S GOT TO GIVE.

AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS WOMEN ARE WHAT DOING THE GIVING.

AND THAT IS A HARD THING, BECAUSE LET'S REMEMBER HOW MANY WOMEN ARE SINGLE MOTHERS.

AND SINGLE MOTHERS STATISTICALLY ARE IN THE LOWER POVERTY LEVEL IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> Bonnie: SO -- >> BUT -- >> SPET.

>> Donna Edwards: TRUMP, WHO'S BEEN LOST, WIDELY LOST SUPPORT IN THE POLLS, NOT JUST NATIONAL POLLS, BUT BATTLEGROUND THE POLLS, IMPORTANT BATTLEGROUND STATE POLLS NOW JOE BIDEN AHEAD, AND THEY ARE EVEN IN OHIO AS OF THIS TAPING, WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO GO REPUBLICAN.

AND DOESN'T THAT TELL PRESIDENT TRUMP HE OUGHT TO GET ON WITH ANOTHER PACKET?

>> Anne Stone: WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT HIT A BRICK WALL.

PELOSI WOULD NOT MOVE OFF OF 2.2 TRILLION.

A LOT OF THAT MONEY THAT WAS BETWEEN WHERE THE PUBLICANS WERE AND THEY WERE WAS TO GO TO NEW YORK IN CALIFORNIA.

HE DID NOT BELIEVE, AND I AGREE, THAT WE SHOULD BE PAYING FOR THEIR BILLS OF THINGS THEY INCURRED BEFORE COVID.

BOTTOM LINE, THEY WERE NOT GOING TO MOVE OFF OF IT.HE SAID, FIND, WE ARE GOING TO WALK AWAY BECAUSE SHE WON'T MOVE.

NOW HE COMES BACK AND SAYS, LISTEN, IF YOU WANT TO GIVE ME A STANDALONE, SOMETHING WHERE MONEY GOES DIRECTLY TO PEOPLE OR GOES DIRECTLY TO BUSINESSES, SMALL BUSINESS, YOU KNOW, SEND IT MY WAY AND I WILL SIGN IT, BECAUSE THE LARGER BILL, THEY CANNOT GET PAST THAT LAST, WHAT, 600 BILLION I THINK IT WAS.

THAT WAS MAINLY BALLOTS FOR CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK, A COUPLE OF OTHER STATES.

I CANNOT BLAME TRUMP FOR SAYING HE IS PROTECTING TAXPAYERS LIKE ME, AND I DON'T LIVE IN A STATE THAT HAS THAT KIND OF DEFICIT.

COVID.

THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, I APPRECIATE THE FACT IS PROTECTING MY INTERESTS.

[CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: LET'S LET DONNA TALK.

>> Donna Edwards: FIRST OF ALL, THE HOUSE PASSED A BILL, THE HEROES ACT, WHICH HAS BEEN SITTING OVER IN THE SENATE -- >> Anne Stone: $4 TRILLION!

>> Donna Edwards: LISTEN, SINCE MAY.

LET ME FINISH, ANNE.

IT WAS $4 TRILLION.

DEMOCRATS CAME DOWN $1 TRILLION.

REPUBLICANS HAVE REFUSED TO COME UP $1 TRILLION TO MEET IN THE MIDDLE.

AND ALL OF THIS, ALL OF THIS PACKAGE DID, FIRST OF ALL, GIVE RELIEF TO INDIVIDUAL AMERICANS WHO ARE UNEMPLOYED, IT MADE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAD PROTECTIONS FOR THEIR, FOR THEIR JOBS, REALLY, YOU KNOW, CENTERING THE PROTECTION PLAN SO THAT SMALL BUSINESSES COULD GET RELIEF.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, IT SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE REALIZE THERE ARE STATES OUT THERE WHO HAVE -- THEIR ECONOMIES HAVE REALLY SUFFERED AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GIVE THEM A BRIDGE OVER INTO RECOVERY.

I THINK THIS IS ENTIRELY REASONABLE.

AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE PRESIDENT SENT OUT SOME RIDICULOUS TWEET WITHOUT CONSULTING ANYONE.

HE REALIZED IT TANKED THE MARKET.

THAT HE CAME BACK AND SAID, OH, DO A LITTLE BIT OF A RELIEF BILL.

WELL, THE AMERICANS NEED A BIG RELIEF BILL.

AND THE FACT IS ON NOVEMBER 1, WE ARE GOING TO SEE RECORD NUMBERS OF NOT JUST FURLOUGHS, WE ARE GOING TO SEE RECORD NUMBERS OF LAYOFFS IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY, THE HOTEL INDUSTRY, AND IT IS GOING TO HIT THIS COUNTRY LIKE WE'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

CONGRESS NEEDS TO DO A RELIEF PACKAGE.

>> Linda Chavez: CAN I JUST WEIGH IN HERE?

BECAUSE I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS A CONSERVATIVE AND AS A REPUBLICAN, WHAT ANN IS SAYING IS SIMPLY WRONG.

THE REASON THAT DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T WANT MONEY TO GO TO CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK IS THAT HE'S A VINDICTIVE MAN.

CALIFORNIA AND NEW YORK PAY MORE THAN THEIR FAIR SHARE OF FEDERAL TAXES.

THE MONEY THAT GOES INTO THE FEDERAL TREASURY FROM THOSE STATES IS REDISTRIBUTED TO SOME OF THE RED STATES THAT HE FAVORS.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT POLITICS AND IT'S ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S VINDICTIVENESS.

NOW, WHAT I LIKE TO SEE IT IS SLIGHTLY MORE TARGETED KIND OF BAILOUT, YES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE HEAD OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE THIS WEEK SAID THAT IF WE DON'T GET A STIMULUS BILL, AND A SIGNIFICANT AND BIG STIMULUS BILL, THIS ECONOMY IS GOING TO BE SUFFERING.

NOT JUST GOING TO BE SHORT-TERM.

THIS WILL BE LONG-TERM SUFFERING.

SO I THINK THAT DONALD TRUMP IS PLAYING GAMES.

I THINK HE'S BEING PETTY AND HE IS NOT PUTTING THE INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FIRST [CROSS TALK] >> Anne Stone: WAIT, WAIT.

>> Bonnie: ANN, I WANT TO READ THE NEXT QUESTION.

I WANT TO MOVE TO THE NEXT QUESTION.

WE ALREADY KNOW THAT DONALD TRUMP SEES AMERICA AS RED AMERICA VERSUS BLUE AMERICA.

IS TALKED ABOUT HIMSELF.

HE REALLY DOES NOT SEEM TO CARE FOR THE BLUE STATES OR WHAT PROBLEMS THEY HAVE, AND HE ONLY CARES FOR RED STATES BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE VOTE FOR HIM.

HE SAID AS MUCH.

I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP.

SO WOULDN'T YOU THINK THAT HE WOULD WANT, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE POLLS ARE NOW SHOWING THAT HE IS LOSING, YOU KNOW, HIS WHOLE CRAZINESS DURING HIS HOSPITAL VISIT AND SPREADING COVID TO SECRET SERVICE AGENTS AND BLAH, BLAH, AND ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE TURNED UP POSITIVE SINCE THAT ROSE GARDEN EVENT, WOULDN'T IT MAKE SENSE FOR HIM POLITICALLY TO SUPPORT A BAILOUT NOW?

BECAUSE HE'S LOSING MAINLY WOMEN, WHITE WOMEN, AND SUBURBANITES.

THAT IS WHY, THAT IS WHY THEY ARE NECK AND NECK WITH BIDEN IN OHIO, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND -- >> Anne Stone: IF I CAN ANSWER, BECAUSE WE ARE NOW THREE ON ONE HERE AND I HAVE THE TIME.

HE IS NOT AGAINST ALL BLUE STATES.

THERE IS SOME BLUE STATES THAT ARE MISMANAGED, SOME THAT ARE NOT.

HE GETS ALONG FINE WITH NEW JERSEY WHERE THEY HAVE TO HAVE A BALANCED BUDGET.

HE GETS ALONG FINE WITH, YOU KNOW, OTHER GOVERNORS AND OTHER BLUE STATES.

HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK AND I THINK ILLINOIS BECAUSE THEY REALLY HAVE MISMANAGED THEIR STATE GOVERNMENTS.

AND HE DOES NOT WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR BAILING THEM OUT.

HE'S WILLING TO GIVE MONEY TOWARDS THE COVID DEBT THAT WAS INCURRED, BUT NOT FOR THE MISMANAGEMENT.

HE DOES NOT WANT TO BAILOUT THE PENSION, MISMANAGEMENT AND ALL OF THAT.

I CANNOT BLAME HIM AGAIN.

IF YOU HE IS PROTECTING US WHEN HE DOES THAT.

>> Bonnie: WE ARE IN A NATIONAL EMERGENCY.

THIS IS NOT A NORMAL TIME ECONOMICALLY.

AND A LOT OF THE VOTERS ARE TURNING AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE OF HIS MISHANDLING OF THE SITUATION.

WHY DOESN'T HE GIVE IN AND NOT WORRY ABOUT THE DETAILS?

JUST GET FUNDING TO PEOPLE WHOSE UNEMPLOYMENT HAS ENDED, GET FUNDING TO RENTERS WHO ARE ABOUT TO BE KICKED OUT OF THEIR HOMES, GET FUNDING TO SMALL BUSINESSES SO THEY CAN CREATE JOBS AGAIN?

>> Anne Stone: ONE OF THE BIG REASONS IS HE WOULD'VE HAD NOT THE SUPPORT IN THE SENATE TO PASS THE BIGGER BILL ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

AND NUMBER TWO, IF IT WAS SUCH AN EASY POLITICAL GIVE AND THIS WAS A BE-ALL, END-ALL TO SOLVE ALL ITS POLITICAL PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW, THEN YOU MUST BE AMAZED THAT IS NOT DOING IT BECAUSE HE'S NOT DOING IT OUT OF PRINCIPAL.

>> Debra Carnahan: FIRST OF ALL, ANN, BECAUSE I WAS LISTENING, I DON'T THINK ANYBODY THINKS THIS PRESIDENT DOESN'T ACT OUT OF VINDICTIVENESS.

HE PRETTY MUCH HAS SHOWN US ALL HE DOES ACT OUT OF VINDICTIVENESS.

CALIFORNIA ALSO IS VERY MUCH A RED/BLUE STATE, BUT THE PRESIDENT LOOKS AT IT AS A BLUE STATE.

HE HAS MADE IT VERY, VERY CLEAR IN HIS AID, IF YOU ARE BLUE, I'M NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

IF YOU ARE RED AND YOU ARE FOR ME, I'M GOING TO HELP YOU.

AND I FEEL FOR YOU THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DEFEND HIM THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE, BUT IT IS THE CASE.

AND HE SAYS THAT.

>> Anne Stone: THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

>> Bonnie: LINDA, LINDA.

>> Linda Chavez: AS I SAID, AS SOMEONE WHO IS A CONSERVATIVE, WHO DOES NOT ALWAYS LIKE THROWING MONEY AT PROBLEMS, BUT THIS IS A VERY SPECIAL SITUATION.

I MEAN, I AGREE THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY CAN PACK THESE BILLS WITH LOTS OF THINGS THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY RELATED TO COVID, THAT MAY IN FACT, YOU KNOW, BE SOMEBODY'S FAVORITE PROGRAM, BUT IF IN FACT THEY ARE ABLE TO TARGET THE BILL IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT DEALS WITH THE IMMEDIATE NEED, WHICH IS, FIRST OF ALL, GETTING MONEY INTO THE HANDS OF INDIVIDUALS, TRYING TO GET MORE MONEY INTO THE HANDS OF PEOPLE WHOSE JOBS HAVE NOT COME BACK -- IT IS NOT THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK, BUT THAT THEIR JOBS ARE NOT COMING BACK -- AND FINALLY, THAT WE HAVE GOT, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A COUNTRY TO RUN.

AND IF WE DON'T DO THIS, WE ARE GOING TO FACE I THINK IT REALLY, REALLY BLEAK FUTURE IN 2021.

REGARDLESS OF WHO IS PRESIDENT, WE WILL BE DEALING WITH THIS FOR A LONG TIME.

>> Anne Stone: NOBODY IS STOPPING THIS BILL BUT NANCY PELOSI.

THERE ARE ONLY 600 BILLION APART.

SHE COULD EASILY GO DOWN TO THE 1.6 TRILLION AND GET IT DONE NOW AND THEN FIGHT THE OTHER BATTLES LATER.

SHE'S THE ONE -- HE DOES NOT WANT TRUMP TO HELP US BEFORE THE ELECTION AND THAT'S WHY SHE WILL NOT GIVE IN.

>> Donna Edwards: THAT IS SUCH RUBBISH.

>> Bonnie: LET'S MOVE ON TO THE VICE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE.

LOOKING AHEAD, WHO IF EITHER ONE OF THE DEBATERS, VICE PRESIDENT PENCE OR SENATOR KAMALA HARRIS, WHO IS THE VP RUNNING MATE OF JOE BIDEN, WHO WON MORE VOTERS OVER?

>> Debra Carnahan: BONNIE, LET ME JUST SAY THIS: THAT IS WHAT A PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE SHOULD LOOK LIKE, WHAT WE SAW BETWEEN THE TWO VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY I THINK THIS PERSON WON, I THINK THAT PERSON WIN, BUT I WAS SO RELIEVED TO SEE CIVILITY.

I DO THINK THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT INTERRUPTED THE SENATOR MORE OFTEN THAN SHE INTERRUPTED HIM.

WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE ON THE SHOW IS, AND IT'S PROVEN, MEN INTERRUPTED WOMEN MORE.

HOWEVER, HAVING SAID THAT, IT WAS SUCH A RELIEF TO WATCH THEM BOTH BE CIVIL AND I REALLY THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE GOT TO HEAR DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW AND NOT BE SO CONFUSED AND YELLING AND SCREAMING.

>> Bonnie: DONNA, WHO WON MORE VOTES FOR THEIR TICKET?

>> Donna Edwards: WELL, PRINCIPAL, I NEVER REALLY THINK THAT VICE PRESIDENT GENERAL DEBATE WINS VOTES.

I THINK IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR BOTH OF THE CANDIDATES TO REALLY SHOW THEMSELVES TO AMERICA AND SHOW WHAT KIND OF PARTNER THEY WILL BE TO THEIR RUNNING MATE.

AND I THINK BOTH, YOU KNOW, DID THAT.

I THINK IN MY NETWORK OF FRIENDS, PEOPLE WERE REALLY TURNED OFF BY THE INTERRUPTING, BY THE TALKING OVER, OVER TIME, AND THEY FELT AND UNFAIRNESS WITH THAT, ESPECIALLY MY WOMEN FRIENDS.

AND THEY -- AND I ACTUALLY TWEETED OUT THAT IT REMINDED ME OF EVERY BOARD ROOM, EVERY STAFF MEETING, EVERY, YOU KNOW, EVERY MEETING THAT I'VE EVER BEEN IN, AND IT WAS KIND OF OFFENSIVE.

I ALSO THINK THAT KAMALA HARRIS HAD A WAY OF -- SHE DID TRY TO CONTINUE TO TALK TO THE CAMERA AND SPEAK DIRECTLY TO VOTERS.

I THINK VICE PRESIDENT PENCE STAYED ON THE MESSAGE OF HIS ADMINISTRATION, BUT IT WAS HARD-PRESSED FOR HIM TO EXPLAIN AWAY THE ABJECT FAILURE OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND HIM AND THE PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT'S ON PEOPLE'S MINDS, AND THAT'S THE CORONAVIRUS.

>> Linda Chavez: THE ONE THING THAT I THINK PENCE DID BRILLIANTLY WAS NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS.

HE AVOIDED ANSWERING QUESTION AFTER QUESTION.

YOU THROW A QUESTION AT HIM AND HE WOULD DEFLECT AND SIMPLY GET ACROSS THE TALKING POINTS THAT HE WANTED TO GET ACROSS.

YOU KNOW, WATCHING THE TWO OF THEM, I LOOKED AT SENATOR HARRIS AND I THOUGHT, GEE, SHE SEEMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, MY BEST GIRLFRIEND WAS TALKING TO ME.

SHE'S CONCERNED ABOUT ME.

SHE WANTS TO, YOU KNOW, PERSUADE ME OF HER POINT OF VIEW, LISTENING TO HIM I FELT I WAS IN A USED CAR SALES LOT IN THE HAD THIS DYSPEPTIC SALESMAN WHO WAS TRYING TO SELL ME A CLUNKER AND WHENEVER I ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT THINGS LIKE THE MILEAGE OR WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW, THE TRANSMISSION HAD BEEN REPLACED, HE WOULD ANSWER SOME TOTALLY IRRELEVANT QUESTION.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF DEBATING STYLE, I THINK HE IS A GOOD DEBATER.

THERE ARE CERTAINLY A SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT SAYS YOU OUGHT TO DO WHAT HE DID WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE THE FACTS ON YOUR SIDE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF YOU'RE TRYING TO WIN OVER PEOPLE WHO DON'T ALREADY AGREE WITH YOU, I DON'T THINK HE DID A VERY GOOD JOB OF IT AND I THINK SHE CAME ACROSS AS A REALLY LIKABLE.

AND THAT, I THINK, YOU KNOW, I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT ALL OF US ON THE SKIN ON KNOW IT'S TRUE: LIKABILITY REALLY MATTERS IN POLITICS AND IT ESPECIALLY MATTERS FOR WOMEN.

AND -- >> Anne Stone: AND NOW -- [CROSS TALK] >> Anne Stone: NOW FOR A CONTRARY VIEW, AGAIN 3-1.

FIRST OF ALL, WE TIMED HOW MUCH WHO GOT HOW MUCH TIME AND GOING INTO THE CLOSING REMARKS, HARRIS HAD ALMOST 8 MINUTES MORE THAN PENCE DID OF TALKING TIME.

SO MUCH FOR INTERRUPTING.

SHE WAS THE FIRST TO INTERRUPT OF THE EVENING BUT THAT'S BESIDES THE POINT.

SHE HAD MORE AIRTIME THAN HE DID.

IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE I THINK SUSAN PAGE THOUGHT HE HAD.

NO, WHEN YOU TIME IT.

SECONDLY, I'M A STUDENT OF DEBATE.

I GOT STRAIGHT A'S IN DEBATES IN COLLEGE.

I WAS STATE CHAMPION, ETC.

SO FROM A TECHNICAL STANDPOINT, HE KICKED HER BUT BIG TIME.

NAILED HER SO MANY TIMES.

THE FACT CHECKING IS COMING OUT AND WILL BE COMING OUT OVER THE NEXT WEEK WHICH WILL SHOW ALMOST EVERYTHING THE WOMAN SAID WAS ALIVE!

I MEAN, IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE HOW SHE MISREPRESENTED HER OWN POSITION AND POSITION OF TRUMP.

AGAIN, I WILL BE BORNE OUT BY WHAT THE FACT CHECKERS WILL TELL YOU, AND PENCE WAS ABLE TO ANSWER SEVERAL OF THEM RIGHT ON THE SPOT.

BUT SHE REPEATED, YOU KNOW, YOU BUM CANARDS ABOUT TRUMP AND DEBUNKED INFORMATION.

ONE OF THE MOST EFFECTIVE THINGS PENCE DID I THOUGHT ON COVID WAS TO DRAW A COMPARISON TO WHAT OBAMA AND BIDEN DID ON EACH 1 AND 1.

IN FACT, 7 MILLION HAVE BEEN INFECTED WITH COVID, ACTUALLY ALMOST 70 MILLION, IT WAS 68 MILLION I THINK IT WAS, WERE INFECTED WITH H1N1 BECAUSE IT WAS NOT AS LETHAL AND NOT AS MANY DIED.

HE MADE THE POINT I WAS HOPING HE WAS GOING TO MAKE, AND THAT IS IF IT HAD BEEN THE SAME AMOUNT OF LETHAL, THEY WOULD BE OVER TWO LANDED RIGHT NOW BECAUSE OF HOW BADLY THEY MISHANDLED H1N1.

EVEN RON KLAIN, BIDEN'S CHIEF OF STAFF, IS NOW MISSING IN ACTION, CANNOT FIND THEM ANYWHERE, SAID THEY DID EVERYTHING WRONG AND IT WAS JUST DUMB LUCK THAT MORE PEOPLE DIDN'T DIE WHEN THEY WERE HANDLING A PANDEMIC.

SO I THOUGHT PENCE, THAT WAS ONE OF THE BEST POINTS HE MADE ALL NIGHT.

>> Bonnie: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE AMY CONEY BARRETT NOMINATION TO THE SUPREME COURT.

THE HEARINGS START ON MONDAY.

AND HE MADE IT SEEM -- WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT DOES ALL THE TIME, HE MADE IT SEEM LIKE IF SHE IS QUESTIONED ABOUT PRECISELY WHAT HER RELIGIOUS VIEWS ARE AND SHE BELONGS, SHE'S IN THE LEADERSHIP OF A VERY BIZARRE SECT OF CATHOLICISM THAT THEY SPEAK IN TONGUES TO EACH OTHER AND THEY ALL BELIEVE THAT MEN ARE VASTLY SUPERIOR TO WOMEN AND SHE VOLUNTARILY SUBJUGATES HERSELF TO THE DOCTRINE, THAT THAT WOULD SOMEHOW BE PERSECUTING HER AS A CHRISTIAN, WHEREAS I SEE IT AS YOU NEED TO KNOW, FOR SUPREME COURT NOMINEE, HOW MUCH THEY ARE GOING TO USE THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS TO INVADE STATE TERRITORY AND FORCE -- PUT THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS INTO LAW AND MAKE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T MEMBERS OF CATHOLIC SECTS A BY THE LAWS OF THOSE SEX.

>> LET ME KUMSSA AMY CONEY BARRETT'S DEFENSE HERE.

ACTUALLY SUPPORT HER NOMINATION AND AND AS YOU MAY BE SURPRISED, I -- >> Anne Stone: I AM SHOCKED.

>> Linda Chavez: AND, YOU KNOW, I AM IN FAVOR OF GENERALLY CONSERVATIVE JUDGES.

BONNIE, IT WAS ON YOUR SHOW WHEN MERRICK GARLAND NOMINATION CAME UP THAT I SAID THAT MERRICK GARLAND DESERVED A BOAT.

I DON'T HAPPEN TO BELIEVE -- THAT I'M BEING VERY CONSISTENT.

I THOUGHT HE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN ABOUT AND I THINK AMY CONEY BARRETT DESERVES THE BOAT.

I THINK THE REAL QUESTION ISN'T THE NATURE OF HER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

THERE WAS ONLY ONE QUESTION, REALLY, AND THAT QUESTION IS, DO YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, ARE THEY GOING TO AFFECT THE WAY WE JUDGE, AND THAT IS THE ISSUE.

IF SHE CAN DISPEL THAT, THEN I THINK THAT OUGHT TO BE THE END OF IT.

I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO BE -- >> Bonnie: BUT YOU CAN'T DISPEL IT.

>> Debra Carnahan: IT'S EASY TO SAY TO SOMEBODY, WOULD YOU LET YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS INTERFERE IN YOUR JUDICIAL DECISIONS?

AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO GO, OH, I WOULD NEVER DO THAT.

I WILL FOLLOW THE RULE OF LAW.

THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.

THAT'S AN EASY ANSWER, AND EVERYBODY IS GOING TO SAY THAT.

THAT IS NOT WHAT IT IS AT ISSUE HERE.

>> Anne Stone: WELL, AS RUTH BADER GINSBURG SAID, YOU KNOW, AND THE PRESIDENT IS ELECTED FOR FOUR YEARS.

HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY IS TO FILL THE SLOT, AND WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN MY FIRST CHOICE?

NO.

BONNIE, YOU KNOW SHE WAS NOT MY FIRST CHOICE.UT DO I THINK WE KNOW HOW SHE WILL BE WHETHER OR NOT HER RELIGION IS GOING TO BE DOMINANT IN HER, AND HER JUDICIAL RULINGS?

I DON'T KNOW THAT I'VE SEEN ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT THAT IS THE CASE.

SHE EVEN TALKED ABOUT ROVE BEING SETTLED LAW, WHETHER THAT WILL BE OPEN TO RESTRICTIONS.

ET'S SEE IF THAT WILL BE THE CASE.

I THINK SHE WILL BE CONFIRMED.

AND THAT THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS TEST FOR A JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME COURT.

>> Donna Edwards: I DON'T THINK WE CAN HAVE THIS DISCUSSION WITHOUT ALWAYS PREFACE IT BY SAYING MERRICK GARLAND IS NOT JUST OBSERVE THE HEARING, HE DESERVED A VOTE BY HIS NOMINATING PRESIDENT.

ESPECIALLY IF THAT IS A STANDARD THAT'S BEING USED NOW.

THAT SAID, I THINK IT'S ENTIRELY APPROPRIATE FOR THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO FULLY EXPLORE THE THINGS THAT INFORM A JUDGE'S DECISION.

AND IF -- TO THE EXTENT THAT HER RELIGION INFORMS THE WAY THAT SHE THINKS ABOUT THE WORLD AND THINKS ABOUT CASE LAW IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO EXPLORE, NOT JUST ON THE SURFACE, BUT TO DIG DEEPLY.

AND SO, I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT LINE OF QUESTIONING BECAUSE SHE'S GOING TO BE WITH US FOR A LIFETIME.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD JUST -- I MEAN, I THINK IT'S EASY TO JUST SAY LET'S SCREEN OUT ANY QUESTIONING OF HER, OF HER RELIGION AS SOMEHOW THAT IS TERRITORY THAT CANNOT BE EXPLORED BECAUSE IT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF AN APPROPRIATE TO CHALLENGE HER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT CHALLENGING HER PERSONAL BELIEFS.

IT IS ABOUT CHALLENGING THE WAY THAT SHE THINKS ABOUT THE WORLD AND THROUGH THE LENS OF RELIGION AND HOW THAT WILL IMPACT THE REST OF US IN OUR PUBLIC LIFE.

>> Bonnie: THANK YOU ALL.

AND PLEASE, IN BETWEEN SHOWS, PLEASE JOIN US ONLINE ON OUR WEBSITE AT www.PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

FOLLOW US ON TWITTER AND INSTAGRAM.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

FOUNDATION.

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